COME ON YOU RAMS the Derby County fans forum

a friendly place to chat about Derby County, football and life


    Ched Evans

    Share
    avatar
    chicken
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : 1983 sometime!
    Number of posts : 14455
    Registration date : 2009-02-11
    Points : 15872
    Age : 48
    Location : Belper

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 6:10 pm

    Mostyn wrote:
    chicken wrote:Why didn't they do all these appeals whilst he was inside?

    Chicken, having just spent 6 months in Nottingham prison when I shouldn't have, these kind of things are more emotive to me than anyone else in this thread. I cannot go into too much detail as there is now an investigation into the conduct of the police and the CPS, and maybe even the judge, depending on how it develops.

    My 'educated opinion' is that the amount of criticism the CPS received a few years back for the lack of convictions out of complaints of sexual crimes has led to a backlash. The stats now look good, highest ever conviction rate. What it doesn't tell you is the amount of appeals won and the amount of people held on remand to be acquitted at the end of it all when the accuser admits the police made the accusations!!

    Sadly, in my own court case, there were disclosure issues. In which vital evidence was either omitted or mis-represented in a perverse attempt to get the conviction.

    My case won't be fast-tracked, but I no longer believe in the justice system. I will come out of it totally vindicated, and with a tidy sum in my bank, straight out of the tax-payers purse.

    I don't believe Ched Evans is a rapist, and for a few reasons, but the fact that the CPS pushed the case, not the 'victim', the victim's promise of six-figure compensation influences things too.

    I'm sorry to hear that Mostyn, I hope everything gets sorted properly.

    AlvoRAM

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 95
    First ever game : Barnsley 95
    Number of posts : 6285
    Registration date : 2010-03-24
    Points : 6650
    Age : 33
    Location : Alvaston

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 6:24 pm

    Mostyn wrote:
    chicken wrote:Why didn't they do all these appeals whilst he was inside?

    Chicken, having just spent 6 months in Nottingham prison when I shouldn't have, these kind of things are more emotive to me than anyone else in this thread. I cannot go into too much detail as there is now an investigation into the conduct of the police and the CPS, and maybe even the judge, depending on how it develops.

    My 'educated opinion' is that the amount of criticism the CPS received a few years back for the lack of convictions out of complaints of sexual crimes has led to a backlash. The stats now look good, highest ever conviction rate. What it doesn't tell you is the amount of appeals won and the amount of people held on remand to be acquitted at the end of it all when the accuser admits the police made the accusations!!

    Sadly, in my own court case, there were disclosure issues. In which vital evidence was either omitted or mis-represented in a perverse attempt to get the conviction.

    My case won't be fast-tracked, but I no longer believe in the justice system. I will come out of it totally vindicated, and with a tidy sum in my bank, straight out of the tax-payers purse.

    I don't believe Ched Evans is a rapist, and for a few reasons, but the fact that the CPS pushed the case, not the 'victim', the victim's promise of six-figure compensation influences things too.

    Sorry to hear that mostyn. Hope it gets sorted out.

    Could be worse though, at least they closed the old 'B' wing down before you got there LOL LOL LOL
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15657
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19271

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 6:31 pm

    Mostyn, I'm sorry to hear of the problems that you have faced and hope things turn out right.

    However I stand by the view that no-one who did not HEAR AND SEE the evidence and
    the witnesses in a case is in a position to know better than the jury.

    Evans is lucky in having had not one but two legal teams and other resources to present his
    case. His victim (which she is until a court rules otherwise) does not have that luxury.

    BTW I thought your earlier comments about her looks and her friends were rather cheap.
    Whether ugly, silly, unpleasant or whatever, everyone is entitled to the protection of the law.




    AlvoRAM

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 95
    First ever game : Barnsley 95
    Number of posts : 6285
    Registration date : 2010-03-24
    Points : 6650
    Age : 33
    Location : Alvaston

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 6:41 pm

    RRC wrote:
    However I stand by the view that no-one who did not HEAR AND SEE the evidence and
    the witnesses in a case is in a position to know better than the jury.

    But all of the evidence is available to be viewed, read and listened to. So I don't understand this stance, as it assumes nobody has bothered to look Dunno
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15657
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19271

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 6:48 pm

    AlvoRAM wrote:
    RRC wrote:
    However I stand by the view that no-one who did not HEAR AND SEE the evidence and
    the witnesses in a case is in a position to know better than the jury.

    But all of the evidence is available to be viewed, read and listened to. So I don't understand this stance, as it assumes nobody has bothered to look Dunno

    I don't believe that reading a transcript that was originally spoken can ever be the same as
    hearing how it sounded live. Nor can you see the demeanour of the witnesses, which may
    be quite revealing.

    The nearest example that I can think of is a play. Reading a play script is quite different
    from seeing it performed. You have to supply your own characterizations and manner of
    delivery for each character, and your guess may be quite personal. Where it's a court case
    your reading and sense of it may be far from what was actually heard and seen by the jury.



    avatar
    Mostyn

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1884
    First ever game : v Norwich City. 26th December 1987.
    Number of posts : 2782
    Registration date : 2009-02-22
    Points : 2817
    Age : 40
    Location : Derby

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 6:57 pm

    RRC wrote:Mostyn, I'm sorry to hear of the problems that you have faced and hope things turn out right.

    However I stand by the view that no-one who did not HEAR AND SEE the evidence and
    the witnesses in a case is in a position to know better than the jury.

    Evans is lucky in having had not one but two legal teams and other resources to present his
    case. His victim (which she is until a court rules otherwise) does not have that luxury.

    BTW I thought your earlier comments about her looks and her friends were rather cheap.
    Whether ugly, silly, unpleasant or whatever, everyone is entitled to the protection of the law.

    Huh? My only comments were on how sober/drunk she looks and nothing else.
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15657
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19271

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 7:12 pm

    Mostyn wrote:
    RRC wrote:Mostyn, I'm sorry to hear of the problems that you have faced and hope things turn out right.

    However I stand by the view that no-one who did not HEAR AND SEE the evidence and
    the witnesses in a case is in a position to know better than the jury.

    Evans is lucky in having had not one but two legal teams and other resources to present his
    case. His victim (which she is until a court rules otherwise) does not have that luxury.

    BTW I thought your earlier comments about her looks and her friends were rather cheap.
    Whether ugly, silly, unpleasant or whatever, everyone is entitled to the protection of the law.

    Huh? My only comments were on how sober/drunk she looks and nothing else.

    Sorry Sorry, you're right - those comments were elsewhere - I apologize.




    AlvoRAM

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 95
    First ever game : Barnsley 95
    Number of posts : 6285
    Registration date : 2010-03-24
    Points : 6650
    Age : 33
    Location : Alvaston

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 7:29 pm

    RRC wrote:
    AlvoRAM wrote:
    RRC wrote:
    However I stand by the view that no-one who did not HEAR AND SEE the evidence and
    the witnesses in a case is in a position to know better than the jury.

    But all of the evidence is available to be viewed, read and listened to. So I don't understand this stance, as it assumes nobody has bothered to look Dunno

    I don't believe that reading a transcript that was originally spoken can ever be the same as
    hearing how it sounded live. Nor can you see the demeanour of the witnesses, which may
    be quite revealing.

    The nearest example that I can think of is a play. Reading a play script is quite different
    from seeing it performed. You have to supply your own characterizations and manner of
    delivery for each character, and your guess may be quite personal. Where it's a court case
    your reading and sense of it may be far from what was actually heard and seen by the jury.

    Ok that seems a fair and reasonable answer. I can see exactly what you mean, and it's a reasonable point.

    Though you really should have a look at some of the key facts from the case if you haven't already. Regardless of any lack of emotion or visible body language, they are very revealing. The fact is he was convicted on the basis that she was too drunk to consent. Denies drinking any more at the hotel, yet was considered able to consent to Clayton just moments before.

    Is it reasonable to suggest that either Clayton is as guilty, or Ched is as innocent? Based purely on the facts and basis for conviction, in that she was too intoxicated to consent.
    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 7:34 pm

    So to follow your train of thought it's not the evidence it's how likeable the witnesses are.

    The more you read about this case, the more it looks like he was guilty of being a prat, but not rape as I understand it.

    Any one who thinks the CPS and the Police won't lie, manipulate and cheat to secure a conviction are naïve to say the least.
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15657
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19271

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 7:51 pm

    RRC wrote:Whether ugly, silly, unpleasant or whatever, everyone is entitled to the protection of the law.

    purpleram wrote:So to follow your train of thought it's not the evidence it's how likeable the witnesses are.

    If your comment is aimed at me, I think my earlier post (quoted above) shows the opposite.
    That applies to everyone in a court case, including the accused.

    However I don't think that reading a transcript can possibly be the same as or convey
    accurately what actually happened in the courtroom, especially not to lay persons like us.

    Have you never doubted the truthfulness of someone you've spoken with?



    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 8:12 pm

    Time and again, but as I said in a previous post, the only people who knew what happened are Evans and his mate. There are no other witnesses, there is no other evidence, it seems Evans was found guilty of being a rich, arrogant big head footballer and has paid the price for all these sleezy newspaper stories about footballers 'roasting' exploits.

    Her tweets and face book posts reveal she is not traumatised but has £ signs in her eyes.
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15657
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19271

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 8:31 pm

    purpleram wrote:Time and again, but as I said in a previous post, the only people who knew what happened are Evans and his mate. There are no other witnesses, there is no other evidence, it seems Evans was found guilty of being a rich, arrogant big head footballer and has paid the price for all these sleezy newspaper stories about footballers 'roasting' exploits.

    Her tweets and face book posts reveal she is not traumatised but has £ signs in her eyes.

    In most rape cases, the only persons present are the alleged rapist and the alleged victim
    because the alleged offences take place in private allegedly. If cases relied on independent
    witnesses, only the most violent rapists would ever be found guilty, because there's no
    smoking gun.

    The girl in the case may be silly, greedy, unpleasant or whatever, however her tweets etc
    are outside the case, just as Evans' conduct at other times and in other places should
    have no bearing on the outcome. Obviously the reputation of footballers in general is
    completely irrelevant to the case too.

    It's similar to the reason why juries are never told about previous convictions, why
    character witnesses are of limited value and why character assassination, which often is
    the main tactic of the defence in many rape cases, seems wrong to me.

    I don't think there's any simple answer to proving or disproving some cases but it doesn't
    mean the jury was wrong in this case. If they were, Evans' appeal to the CCRC will succeed.

    I would not want Evans (rapist or not), Marlon King or other players who behave so badly
    at a family club like Derby.



    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 8:45 pm

    I agree with you RRC, that the very nature of rape makes it a difficult case to prove but that doesn't or at least shouldn't mean you should water down the burden of proof.

    It's another reason politics should stay out of the law, pressure groups have put massive pressure on the judiciary and the CPS to increase the conviction rate in rape cases. Understandable but two wrongs don't make a right, and Evans conviction is wrong IMO. Moot I know as it's the jury or the court of appeal more likely that will ultimately decide.
    avatar
    Mostyn

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1884
    First ever game : v Norwich City. 26th December 1987.
    Number of posts : 2782
    Registration date : 2009-02-22
    Points : 2817
    Age : 40
    Location : Derby

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 8:59 pm

    RRC wrote:
    purpleram wrote:Time and again, but as I said in a previous post, the only people who knew what happened are Evans and his mate. There are no other witnesses, there is no other evidence, it seems Evans was found guilty of being a rich, arrogant big head footballer and has paid the price for all these sleezy newspaper stories about footballers 'roasting' exploits.

    Her tweets and face book posts reveal she is not traumatised but has £ signs in her eyes.

    In most rape cases, the only persons present are the alleged rapist and the alleged victim
    because the alleged offences take place in private allegedly. If cases relied on independent
    witnesses, only the most violent rapists would ever be found guilty, because there's no
    smoking gun.

    The girl in the case may be silly, greedy, unpleasant or whatever, however her tweets etc
    are outside the case, just as Evans' conduct at other times and in other places should
    have no bearing on the outcome. Obviously the reputation of footballers in general is
    completely irrelevant to the case too.

    It's similar to the reason why juries are never told about previous convictions, why
    character witnesses are of limited value and why character assassination, which often is
    the main tactic of the defence in many rape cases, seems wrong to me.

    I don't think there's any simple answer to proving or disproving some cases but it doesn't
    mean the jury was wrong in this case. If they were, Evans' appeal to the CCRC will succeed.

    I would not want Evans (rapist or not), Marlon King or other players who behave so badly
    at a family club like Derby
    .

    It's hard for me to say this without sounding somewhat patronising and maybe even condescending, but you're ridiculously naive if you think this sort of thing hasn't and isn't still happening with Derby County players. There've been lots of scandals involving Derby players with loose morals. Although they've never ended in rape accusations, don't think that the modern day young man doesn't go out shagging!

    I know you're quite mature in terms of age RRC, but even myself, at 38 years old finds the behaviour I witness on large scale, on a night out, quite disturbing.

    I'm not justifying it, but you're very very misled if you're thinking someone like Ched Evans is unique on a night out, trying to pull drunk girls. He's very much the norm...

    AlvoRAM

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 95
    First ever game : Barnsley 95
    Number of posts : 6285
    Registration date : 2010-03-24
    Points : 6650
    Age : 33
    Location : Alvaston

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 9:08 pm

    That was my point earlier in the thread Mostyn. The way the law is right now, and according to this case, probably means that 90% of blokes are rapists. Because it doesn't matter how well you know each other, whether you're married, whether you're both drunk or whether there are any other mitigating circumstances, the law according to this case states that if she's drunk, she cannot consent.

    Which is a shame for me and my missus of 12 years, as we both agree that we both perform better after a drink ;) LOL
    avatar
    Mostyn

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1884
    First ever game : v Norwich City. 26th December 1987.
    Number of posts : 2782
    Registration date : 2009-02-22
    Points : 2817
    Age : 40
    Location : Derby

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 9:17 pm

    AlvoRAM wrote:That was my point earlier in the thread Mostyn. The way the law is right now, and according to this case, probably means that 90% of blokes are rapists. Because it doesn't matter how well you know each other, whether you're married, whether you're both drunk or whether there are any other mitigating circumstances, the law according to this case states that if she's drunk, she cannot consent.

    Which is a shame for me and my missus of 12 years, as we both agree that we both perform better after a drink ;) LOL

    the other one is where a couple have a massive argument, and then they have 'make-up' sex. That is now a statute of rape because the woman is under pressure to have sex.
    avatar
    Loughborough Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    Number of posts : 10994
    Registration date : 2009-02-14
    Points : 13343
    Location : Doghouse

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 9:17 pm

    From my point of view I doubt there is going to be any kind of agreement on either side so I'm going to draw a personal line underneath this thread. I neither know nor, if I'm honest, care what Ched Evans actually did, he's probably become more famous for this than he ever would for his ability and only time will tell whether he gets another chance in the game and to be fair I don't really care either way.

    AlvoRAM

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 95
    First ever game : Barnsley 95
    Number of posts : 6285
    Registration date : 2010-03-24
    Points : 6650
    Age : 33
    Location : Alvaston

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Sun 16 Nov 2014, 9:20 pm

    Mostyn wrote:
    AlvoRAM wrote:That was my point earlier in the thread Mostyn. The way the law is right now, and according to this case, probably means that 90% of blokes are rapists. Because it doesn't matter how well you know each other, whether you're married, whether you're both drunk or whether there are any other mitigating circumstances, the law according to this case states that if she's drunk, she cannot consent.

    Which is a shame for me and my missus of 12 years, as we both agree that we both perform better after a drink ;) LOL

    the other one is where a couple have a massive argument, and then they have 'make-up' sex. That is now a statute of rape because the woman is under pressure to have sex.

    Oh whattttt..... Make up sex is the best :( allegedly. And to be fair, if anyone feels under pressure to perform in that situation, it's me LOL roll LOL roll LOL roll
    avatar
    Calif_Ramette

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 2005
    Number of posts : 2573
    Registration date : 2009-02-25
    Points : 2780
    Age : 39
    Location : Weed, CA USofA

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:06 am

    Well until he is cleared, if he ever is, he is a convicted rapist. His pals have tried to bully the victim which to me shows even more low class of himself and his mates. I would not want him or Marlon King and the like of them to play for Derby.
    avatar
    Angus

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 2155
    Registration date : 2012-07-17
    Points : 2258

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Angus on Mon 17 Nov 2014, 9:13 am

    purpleram wrote:I agree with you RRC, that the very nature of rape makes it a difficult case to prove but that doesn't or at least shouldn't mean you should water down the burden of proof.

    It's another reason politics should stay out of the law, pressure groups have put massive pressure on the judiciary  and the CPS to increase the conviction rate in rape cases. Understandable but two wrongs don't make a right, and Evans conviction is wrong IMO. Moot I know as it's the jury or the court of appeal more likely that will ultimately decide.

    You make a great point on the politics, as you say understandable to a point but when you read Mostyn's story, that doesn't sound much like justice, or fairness in any way.

    Without knowing too much legally, it seems getting bail when charged with rape is getting more difficult as well for the majority without the back up Evans got, which is another aspect that needs review.
    avatar
    chicken
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : 1983 sometime!
    Number of posts : 14455
    Registration date : 2009-02-11
    Points : 15872
    Age : 48
    Location : Belper

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Mon 17 Nov 2014, 5:23 pm

    Seems Paul Heaton of Beautiful South fame also has a problem with Ched Evans - taken from his Facebook page.

    Paul Heaton
    18 minutes ago
    It is with great regret that I announce my resignation as patron of Sheffield United Community Foundation.

    I would firstly like to salute the bravery of my fellow Blades and patrons in resigning their positions and in particular Charlie Webster, Jessica Ennis-Hill and Lindsay Graham, in standing up for victims of rape everywhere.

    I firmly believe that Ched Evans has the right to rebuild his career in football but rebuilding a career should not involve walking straight out of prison and into the shirt of the club he so badly let down.

    I believe he needs to move away and move on, and the club itself needs to lift its reputation out of the gutter.

    As a way of showing a lead to others involved in this torrid affair, I will be donating my fee from this month's Sheffield City Hall gig to Sheffield Rape Crisis Centre.

    Finally, I would like to thank the Foundation for its continued hard work in the Sheffield community and wish them the very best for the future
    avatar
    Calif_Ramette

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 2005
    Number of posts : 2573
    Registration date : 2009-02-25
    Points : 2780
    Age : 39
    Location : Weed, CA USofA

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:00 pm

    Good on him. Nice to see a lot of people, minus Nigel the board of Sheff United taking a stand.
    avatar
    Stockport Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1971
    First ever game : Newcastle (h) Easter 1983 I think
    Number of posts : 5123
    Registration date : 2010-03-22
    Points : 5656
    Age : 51
    Location : That's a toughie.......

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Stockport Ram on Mon 17 Nov 2014, 8:55 pm

    Calif_Ramette wrote:Good on him. Nice to see a lot of people, minus Nigel the board of Sheff United taking a stand.


    What exactly do you want Nigel to do?

    Resign over a player who isn't even employed by his employer?

    No one knows what Nigel Clough thinks about this situation - we all have our own opinions on that - but I'm really not sure exactly what else he can do in his position, apart from resign.

    None of the aforementioned ambassadors of the club are foregoing their living by expressing their opinion and acting in the way that they have.

    I have said before, and will say again, that I would expect Mr Clough to resign if Evans were given a contract.
    avatar
    Calif_Ramette

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 2005
    Number of posts : 2573
    Registration date : 2009-02-25
    Points : 2780
    Age : 39
    Location : Weed, CA USofA

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 4:15 am

    He could have come out and said that if Sheff Utd offer Evans a contract he would resign. A simple statement is all.
    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:18 am

    Maybe, or maybe not, he does not share your opinion Calif?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue 27 Jun 2017, 8:02 am