COME ON YOU RAMS the Derby County fans forum

a friendly place to chat about Derby County, football and life


    Ched Evans

    Share
    avatar
    Mucker1884

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1975
    First ever game : Carlisle - '75 - last match - champs - Ley Stand
    Number of posts : 10233
    Registration date : 2009-07-22
    Points : 11247
    Age : 54
    Location : Derby

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mucker1884 on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:25 am

    I feel for Young Nigel. He's in a very difficult position.
    But why should he make such an important official announcement based on the proviso "If..."?

    Why not work along the lines of "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it"?
    I suspect he's already decided (privately) what he would do if Evans get's re-signed, but as I doubt he'll have much, if any, of a say in the final decision, why show his hand now?

    I think it's unfair of the masses to try and force Nigel to offer his thoughts and opinions on this highly emotive and sensitive subject, when it's simply all being played out of his hands, and has pretty much nothing to do with him.

    Yes, I think he would resign, and it wouldn't surprise me if he has already discussed this with his employers, but no way should we expect him to make it public at this stage.
    Same goes for his "Team mates". There's no sign of a threatened mass walk out if Evans is re-signed, but it would be nice to think they would all do that when it comes to the crunch.
    The decision is out of their hands. IMO, they are all wise to keep their thoughts and opinions to themselves, until that decision is made. Publicly at least.

    If they let Evans go, Nigel can carry on with the job in hand, with his biggest "crime" being that of "saying nothing", and keeping his opinions to himself. I think I'd be very tempted to do the same, in his position.

    Totally different for those who don't have to think about their livelihoods. The likes of ex players, pundits, the club's fans and trustees etc (and people on forums, of course) can all have their say in public. For those that are employed by the club, I think they are perfectly entitled to keep schtum, and only make their "announcements" if and when they feel the need... and that should be when SUFC finally stop pi**ing about, put us all out of our misery, and "let Evans go"!

    avatar
    Angus

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 2155
    Registration date : 2012-07-17
    Points : 2258

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Angus on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:58 am

    Mucker1884 wrote:I feel for Young Nigel.  He's in a very difficult position.  
    But why should he make such an important official announcement based on the proviso "If..."?

    Why not work along the lines of "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it"?
    I suspect he's already decided (privately) what he would do if Evans get's re-signed, but as I doubt he'll have much, if any, of a say in the final decision, why show his hand now?

    I think it's unfair of the masses to try and force Nigel to offer his thoughts and opinions on this highly emotive and sensitive subject, when it's simply all being played out of his hands, and has pretty much nothing to do with him.

    Yes, I think he would resign, and it wouldn't surprise me if he has already discussed this with his employers, but no way should we expect him to make it public at this stage.
    Same goes for his "Team mates".  There's no sign of a threatened mass walk out if Evans is re-signed, but it would be nice to think they would all do that when it comes to the crunch.
    The decision is out of their hands.  IMO, they are all wise to keep their thoughts and opinions to themselves, until that decision is made.  Publicly at least.

    If they let Evans go, Nigel can carry on with the job in hand, with his biggest "crime" being that of "saying nothing", and keeping his opinions to himself.  I think I'd be very tempted to do the same, in his position.

    Totally different for those who don't have to think about their livelihoods.  The likes of ex players, pundits, the club's fans and trustees etc (and people on forums, of course) can all have their say in public.  For those that are employed by the club, I think they are perfectly entitled to keep schtum, and only make their "announcements" if and when they feel the need... and that should be when SUFC finally stop pi**ing about, put us all out of our misery, and "let Evans go"!


    Can SUFC afford to let Evans go, what you don't read underneath the PR agenda is Evans is hugely popular amongst the dee-dah fans, most were hugely behind re-signing him anyway, now even more so.

    Knowing Nigel he will take him as he finds him and if he shows he is better than they have in training, combined with the right attitude a contract will come Evans way.

    Evans was a cult hero and in the season he was jailed got 25 goals, if the verdict was different he would have fired Sheff United to promotion, after he was sent away Sheff Wed overtook them.

    I can't see them backing out now other than Nigel deciding he has been away too long and won't get it back. The backlash then really would be vicious.
    avatar
    Mucker1884

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1975
    First ever game : Carlisle - '75 - last match - champs - Ley Stand
    Number of posts : 10233
    Registration date : 2009-07-22
    Points : 11247
    Age : 54
    Location : Derby

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mucker1884 on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:39 am

    Good points, Angus, and in all honesty, mainly due to my ignorance of other clubs, I wasn't aware he was so popular, successful, and well thought of. I'd still hope Nigel had enough morals about him to turn his nose up at having him back... but that's just my personal opinion, of course!

    Am I right in thinking that... and this is all guess work... as they keep mentioning "re-signing" as opposed to "continuing/extending his contract", has his contract actually expired? Were they paying him full whack whilst he was "unavailable"? Is he effectively a free agent now? If they therefore decide to "keep him", would they get him "on the cheap" because of all that?

    It's a difficult one, for all involved, and I'm glad it's not "my" club. This can't end with everybody being satisfied with the outcome.

    I know very little of the details, in all honesty, and don't particularly wish to look into it any deeper than reading comments on here, but I have to say, at this stage, under the banner "Convicted rapist" (who hasn't, strictly speaking, completed his sentence yet, I believe?), I'm erring on the side of those that are suggesting he should not be re-signed.

    In essence, I wouldn't want to sit beside my wife, knowingly applauding and cheering a convicted rapist, simply because he was wearing the shirt of my football club.

    Luckily, I am in the fortunate position of being able to bury my head in the sand, (always my preferred option, when shit hits the fan!) and let all at SUFC sort their own problems out! Rather them than me!!
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15723
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19385

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:55 am

    Mucker1884 wrote:Am I right in thinking that... and this is all guess work... as they keep mentioning "re-signing" as opposed to "continuing/extending his contract", has his contract actually expired?  Were they paying him full whack whilst he was "unavailable"?  Is he effectively a free agent now?  If they therefore decide to "keep him", would they get him "on the cheap" because of all that?

    Evans had a 3-year contract with SUFC, which ended in May 2012, so I assume that he's
    now a free agent and there's no question of SUFC losing or making money on a transfer.

    Presumably any club could offer him a contract at any time, if they wanted to.



    avatar
    Angus

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 2155
    Registration date : 2012-07-17
    Points : 2258

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Angus on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 11:07 am

    RRC wrote:
    Mucker1884 wrote:Am I right in thinking that... and this is all guess work... as they keep mentioning "re-signing" as opposed to "continuing/extending his contract", has his contract actually expired?  Were they paying him full whack whilst he was "unavailable"?  Is he effectively a free agent now?  If they therefore decide to "keep him", would they get him "on the cheap" because of all that?

    Evans had a 3-year contract with SUFC, which ended in May 2012, so I assume that he's
    now a free agent and there's no question of SUFC losing or making money on a transfer.

    Presumably any club could offer him a contract at any time, if they wanted to.

    He gave Sheff Utd first option on his services due to the support he got from the fans, with his past record he will have other options. If he gets fit and close to how he was he will be worth a lot of money in the future.

    I would be amazed if he doesn't sign a contract for Sheff Utd in the near future. It looks like they have kept a spot open for him to slot into.
    avatar
    Calif_Ramette

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 2005
    Number of posts : 2580
    Registration date : 2009-02-25
    Points : 2787
    Age : 39
    Location : Weed, CA USofA

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 4:26 pm

    purpleram wrote:Maybe, or maybe not, he does not share your opinion Calif?

    I don't know if he does, I would hope he would not want to manage a convicted rapist but that is just me.
    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 5:49 pm

    That's why twisting the law to suit politics is a bad idea, in this case it diminishes rape in the eyes of the public. It does this to the extent we have debates like this.

    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15723
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19385

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 5:57 pm

    purpleram wrote:That's why twisting the law to suit politics is a bad idea, in this case it diminishes rape in the eyes of the public. It does this to the extent we have debates like this.


    The CPS bring more cases to court, but the juries decide the verdicts just as they always have.

    Too much is made of this alleged political angle - very little, if anything, has changed.

    If the convicted person wasn't a footballer, I doubt whether we'd discuss this all.




    AlvoRAM

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 95
    First ever game : Barnsley 95
    Number of posts : 6285
    Registration date : 2010-03-24
    Points : 6650
    Age : 33
    Location : Alvaston

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:04 pm

    RRC wrote:If the convicted person wasn't a footballer, I doubt whether we'd discuss this all.

    We might, if it was someone we cared about. Unless of course you don't know anyone that's ever had sex whilst drunk?
    avatar
    Mostyn

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1884
    First ever game : v Norwich City. 26th December 1987.
    Number of posts : 2782
    Registration date : 2009-02-22
    Points : 2817
    Age : 41
    Location : Derby

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:06 pm

    RRC wrote:
    purpleram wrote:That's why twisting the law to suit politics is a bad idea, in this case it diminishes rape in the eyes of the public. It does this to the extent we have debates like this.


    The CPS bring more cases to court, but the juries decide the verdicts just as they always have.

    Too much is made of this alleged political angle - very little, if anything, has changed.

    If the convicted person wasn't a footballer, I doubt whether we'd discuss this all.

    What you don't see is the amount of cases won on appeal. The tactic of non-disclosure and the smoke and mirrors tactics used to secure a conviction makes the CPS statistics look good, which is the political angle in the aftermath of Jimmy Saville and all involved in operation Yewtree.

    The jury are pawns in this, they are basically steered into a decision by the way evidence is presented.

    If the person convicted wasn't a footballer, perhaps the prosecution wouldn't have been able to use the arrogance and lewd 'footballer behaviour' angle to secure a conviction at all. I agree we wouldn't hear about it though. That doesn't however make him any more or less innocent or guilty.
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15723
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19385

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:09 pm

    AlvoRAM wrote:
    RRC wrote:If the convicted person wasn't a footballer, I doubt whether we'd discuss this all.

    We might, if it was someone we cared about. Unless of course you don't know anyone that's ever had sex whilst drunk?

    Why are you making this personal?

    I don't know many people who are habitually drunk and I don't want to know that
    much about their (or anyone's) private lives. I respect people's right to privacy and
    I certainly wouldn't discuss their private lives in a public forum.



    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15723
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19385

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:16 pm

    Mostyn wrote:The jury are pawns in this, they are basically steered into a decision by the way evidence is presented.

    How is this different from any trial where the prosecution and defence present opposing views?

    Unless there is clear physical evidence or independent witnesses, which there rarely is in
    rape cases and many other cases, trials often come down to convincing the jury.



    avatar
    Loughborough Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    Number of posts : 11114
    Registration date : 2009-02-14
    Points : 13481
    Location : Doghouse

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:17 pm

    Mostyn, just because you've had a bad experience doesn't mean every other case is dodgy.
    avatar
    Mostyn

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1884
    First ever game : v Norwich City. 26th December 1987.
    Number of posts : 2782
    Registration date : 2009-02-22
    Points : 2817
    Age : 41
    Location : Derby

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:29 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Mostyn, just because you've had a bad experience doesn't mean every other case is dodgy.

    I don't recall saying that every case is. But the Ched Evans case, the fact that there was no complaint, no DNA evidence, lots of exaggeration (about the 'victim's state), no witnesses, the tweets from the victim (regarding her payout), the different decisions for both accused, and the emphasis on Evans' fame, there's no doubt this IS a very dodgy case.
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15723
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19385

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:42 pm

    Mostyn wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:Mostyn, just because you've had a bad experience doesn't mean every other case is dodgy.

    I don't recall saying that every case is. But the Ched Evans case, the fact that there was no complaint, no DNA evidence, lots of exaggeration (about the 'victim's state), no witnesses, the tweets from the victim (regarding her payout), the different decisions for both accused, and the emphasis on Evans' fame, there's no doubt this IS a very dodgy case.

    This is your take on the case, which is understandably very personal and highly coloured
    by your bad experience, but the jury and the Appeal Court saw it differently.

    There was no need for DNA because Evans agreed that intercourse had taken place.
    There are very rarely any independent witnesses in rape cases, because the alleged
    offences usually take place in private.
    The circumstances in the two cases were quite different, so it's not surprising the
    verdicts were different.
    The other footballer was not convicted so maybe stuff about footballers and fame
    didn't influence the jury much.

    If there is cause to doubt the verdict, the CCRC should resolve the matter and Evans
    will get a new trial or be cleared. Until then he's a convicted rapist, out of jail on leave,
    and everything else is speculation.



    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:58 pm

    RRC wrote:
    purpleram wrote:That's why twisting the law to suit politics is a bad idea, in this case it diminishes rape in the eyes of the public. It does this to the extent we have debates like this.


    The CPS bring more cases to court, but the juries decide the verdicts just as they always have.

    Too much is made of this alleged political angle - very little, if anything, has changed.

    If the convicted person wasn't a footballer, I doubt whether we'd discuss this all.

    Surely that makes it worse, an average Joe would probably have no voice.

    I think Alvo makes a salient point, and your reaction to it is telling RRC, please don't take this as an attempt to offend, but the line between the behaviour of young men and young women has almost disappeared. Some girls get very drunk and sleep around with men who get very drunk and sleep around. If having sex with a drunk person is a crime then half the country should be in jail. Beer removes inhibitions just because you feel ashamed in the morning doesn't excuse your behaviour or make the other person a criminal.

    Take responsibility for what you drink, smoke or sniff. It's telling that she thought she had been drugged, again avoiding any responsibility for her behaviour.
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15723
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19385

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:16 pm

    purpleram wrote:
    RRC wrote:
    purpleram wrote:That's why twisting the law to suit politics is a bad idea, in this case it diminishes rape in the eyes of the public. It does this to the extent we have debates like this.


    The CPS bring more cases to court, but the juries decide the verdicts just as they always have.

    Too much is made of this alleged political angle - very little, if anything, has changed.

    If the convicted person wasn't a footballer, I doubt whether we'd discuss this all.

    Surely that makes it worse, an average Joe would probably have no voice.

    I think Alvo makes a salient point, and your reaction to it is telling RRC, please don't take this as an attempt to offend, but the line between the behaviour of young men and young women has almost disappeared. Some girls get very drunk and sleep around with men who get very drunk and sleep around. If having sex with a drunk person is a crime then half the country should be in jail. Beer removes inhibitions just because you feel ashamed in the morning doesn't excuse your behaviour or make the other person a criminal.

    Take responsibility for what you drink, smoke or sniff. It's telling that she thought she had been drugged, again avoiding any responsibility for her behaviour.

    Are you seriously suggesting this forum would have a massive thread on a court case
    that didn't involve a famous person? I doubt whether there would be, if it was Mr or Mrs
    Average. Of course their fate is not less important but it would rarely be a cause celebre.

    I'm trying to be objective as I hope I (and anyone) would be in any case, whether it was
    rape, fraud, assault, robbery, murder, terrorism or whatever. I've been lucky in that I've
    had little experience of crime of any sort but I can still use my brains and commonsense.

    The girl seems silly and irresponsible but that does not mean she could not have been
    raped - blaming the victim in rape cases has always been a popular defence.
    She and Evans are both entitled to have their case tried fairly under our legal system,
    which is what happened as far as I can tell.

    The jury who tried the case found Evans guilty and the Appeal Court saw no grounds to differ.
    If the CCRC finds cause to disagree, Evans will rightly get a new trial or be cleared.
    That's how our legal system works and it's good enough for me

    What you are discussing seems to be about changing the law or court procedures, which
    is not an option in this or any ongoing court case.


    Last edited by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total



    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:39 pm

    No I'm saying the opposite, as appears to be the case with Mostyn's situation you would of heard nothing, except the word rapist, and moved on.

    I'm saying it's sad that it takes him being famous to highlight a flaw in the law.
    avatar
    RRC
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1961
    Number of posts : 15723
    Registration date : 2009-02-13
    Points : 19385

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:47 pm

    purpleram wrote:No I'm saying the opposite, as appears to be the case with Mostyn's situation you would of heard nothing, except the word rapist, and moved on.

    I'm saying it's sad that it takes him being famous to highlight a flaw in the law.

    I'm not sure that the law is flawed - maybe the interpretation of it or the guidance given
    to juries could be.

    Given the strength of feeling expressed in this thread, can we expect forum members to
    be campaigning for a change in the law? Otherwise they've just been letting off hot air.

    There is a petition to make the law on rape gender neutral, to replace 'he' with 'they'
    which seems very sensible but that's the only one I've seen.


    Last edited by RRC on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total




    AlvoRAM

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 95
    First ever game : Barnsley 95
    Number of posts : 6285
    Registration date : 2010-03-24
    Points : 6650
    Age : 33
    Location : Alvaston

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:56 pm

    RRC wrote:
    AlvoRAM wrote:
    RRC wrote:If the convicted person wasn't a footballer, I doubt whether we'd discuss this all.

    We might, if it was someone we cared about. Unless of course you don't know anyone that's ever had sex whilst drunk?

    Why are you making this personal?

    I don't know many people who are habitually drunk and I don't want to know that
    much about their (or anyone's) private lives. I respect people's right to privacy and
    I certainly wouldn't discuss their private lives in a public forum.

    I apologise if you thought I was making it personal to you, I wasn't. However what I was trying to say was that it could affect any of us. all of us do, I am almost certain, know people who could find themselves in this situation.
    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:58 pm

    I'm not sure anyone's mind has been changed but it's been a good discussion for the most part maturely debated IMO, that's why this site is a cut above.
    avatar
    Calif_Ramette

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 2005
    Number of posts : 2580
    Registration date : 2009-02-25
    Points : 2787
    Age : 39
    Location : Weed, CA USofA

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:07 pm

    Why do you find it odd she thought she had been drugged Purple? That is well known to happen in all sorts of situations.
    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:19 pm

    Calif_Ramette wrote:Why do you find it odd she thought she had been drugged Purple? That is well known to happen in all sorts of situations.

    Not odd Cali, but telling in the sense she didn't want to take responsibility for drinking too much she immediately tried to deflect blame, which is how the Police initially got involved.

    When the date rape drug stories first hit the tabloids the Met Police received hundreds of complaints from girls claiming spiked drinks, this lead to hundreds of blood tests, upshot was not one positive test result. They had all drank more than they estimated and I assume genuinely couldn't understand how they had got in such a state.
    avatar
    MadAmster

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 13559
    Registration date : 2009-02-20
    Points : 15147
    Age : 63
    Location : Where else but Amster Dam

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:20 am

    RRC wrote:

    There is a petition to make the law on rape gender neutral, to replace 'he' with 'they'
    which seems very sensible but that's the only one I've seen.

    How valid would a gramatically incorrect Law be? I hope nobody sees this as pedantics or semantics on my part but the wording of a Law has to be exact and unambiguous or it opens loopholes that Lawyers will exploit.

    My thoughts on this are that, if I was the only accused and the charge read "they", I would instruct my solicitor to have the charges drummed out of Court. The reason being that "they" is the nominative plural of he, she, and it. I am not a they and therefore cannot be referred to as such.

    Having said that, if someone can come up with a gender neutral wording, I would back it. "The accused" would seem to fit the bill




    Oh David Nugent, Oh David Nugent, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston at the side of the road in a Volkswagen beetle............
    avatar
    Hectors House

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Burnley i think
    Number of posts : 1505
    Registration date : 2010-10-01
    Points : 1647
    Age : 52
    Location : Tibshelf

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Hectors House on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 2:20 pm

    Just a general question
    you want your misses to have a threesome but she says no, however you think that if she gets p****d you may be able to manipulate that to happen. You get her drunk, mess about with her for a bit, then you invite your mate round and he has sex with her.
    Next morning she starts to remember and isnt happy. Has she been raped???

    In my book if you knowingly do something like that i would say its rape

    Sponsored content

    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed 23 Aug 2017, 8:23 pm