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    Ched Evans

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    SawleyRam

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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by SawleyRam on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 2:50 pm

    Hectors House wrote:Just a general question
    you want your misses to have a threesome but she says no, however you think that if she gets p****d  you may be able to manipulate that to happen. You get her drunk, mess about with her for a bit, then you invite your mate round and he has sex with her.
    Next morning she starts to remember and isnt happy. Has she been raped???

    In my book if you knowingly do something like that i would say its rape

    Good example HH both should be charged with rape not just one as in the Ched Evans case.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 3:46 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:
    Hectors House wrote:Just a general question
    you want your misses to have a threesome but she says no, however you think that if she gets p****d  you may be able to manipulate that to happen. You get her drunk, mess about with her for a bit, then you invite your mate round and he has sex with her.
    Next morning she starts to remember and isnt happy. Has she been raped???

    In my book if you knowingly do something like that i would say its rape

    Good example HH both should be charged with rape not just one as in the Ched Evans case.

    If she consented, then it isn't rape. If not, it is. Ched Evans was charged with rape because she claimed she didn't consent to having sex with him. His mate was not charged with rape because she agreed to have sex with him.

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    Hectors House

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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Hectors House on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 3:50 pm

    chicken wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Hectors House wrote:Just a general question
    you want your misses to have a threesome but she says no, however you think that if she gets p****d  you may be able to manipulate that to happen. You get her drunk, mess about with her for a bit, then you invite your mate round and he has sex with her.
    Next morning she starts to remember and isnt happy. Has she been raped???

    In my book if you knowingly do something like that i would say its rape

    Good example HH both should be charged with rape not just one as in the Ched Evans case.

    If she consented, then it isn't rape.  If not, it is.  Ched Evans was charged with rape because she claimed she didn't consent to having sex with him.  His mate was not charged with rape because she agreed to have sex with him.  


    What im saying is if she doesnt consent when sober and makes it quite clear but then appears to consent coz you got her pissed is that classed as consent or not. Are you able to make an informed decision if very drunk??
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Hectors House on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 3:51 pm

    Hectors House wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Hectors House wrote:Just a general question
    you want your misses to have a threesome but she says no, however you think that if she gets p****d  you may be able to manipulate that to happen. You get her drunk, mess about with her for a bit, then you invite your mate round and he has sex with her.
    Next morning she starts to remember and isnt happy. Has she been raped???

    In my book if you knowingly do something like that i would say its rape

    Good example HH both should be charged with rape not just one as in the Ched Evans case.

    If she consented, then it isn't rape.  If not, it is.  Ched Evans was charged with rape because she claimed she didn't consent to having sex with him.  His mate was not charged with rape because she agreed to have sex with him.  


    What im saying is if she doesnt consent when sober and makes it quite clear but then appears to consent coz you got her pissed is that classed as consent or not. Are you able to make an informed decision if very drunk??
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 4:18 pm

    Hectors House wrote:
    Hectors House wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Hectors House wrote:Just a general question
    you want your misses to have a threesome but she says no, however you think that if she gets p****d  you may be able to manipulate that to happen. You get her drunk, mess about with her for a bit, then you invite your mate round and he has sex with her.
    Next morning she starts to remember and isnt happy. Has she been raped???

    In my book if you knowingly do something like that i would say its rape

    Good example HH both should be charged with rape not just one as in the Ched Evans case.

    If she consented, then it isn't rape.  If not, it is.  Ched Evans was charged with rape because she claimed she didn't consent to having sex with him.  His mate was not charged with rape because she agreed to have sex with him.  


    What im saying is if she doesnt consent when sober and makes it quite clear but then appears to consent coz you got her pissed is that classed as consent or not. Are you able to make an informed decision if very drunk??

    It's rape if she's previously said no and then you deliberately get her drunk with the intention of making her do something she's already said no to.

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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 4:29 pm

    chicken wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Hectors House wrote:Just a general question
    you want your misses to have a threesome but she says no, however you think that if she gets p****d  you may be able to manipulate that to happen. You get her drunk, mess about with her for a bit, then you invite your mate round and he has sex with her.
    Next morning she starts to remember and isnt happy. Has she been raped???

    In my book if you knowingly do something like that i would say its rape

    Good example HH both should be charged with rape not just one as in the Ched Evans case.

    If she consented, then it isn't rape.  If not, it is.  Ched Evans was charged with rape because she claimed she didn't consent to having sex with him.  His mate was not charged with rape because she agreed to have sex with him.  


    That's not at all what I've read in several places. She did as you say try and claim she was unconscious and therefore could not consent to having sex with him, that much is true. However, that was disproved by the night porter, who was listening at the door after Ched had entered and not only confirmed she was awake, but, shall we say, seemed to be enjoying her time with both males. However, her claim was made in court, well after he'd already been charged.

    He was charged with rape because he admitted having sex with her, whilst she was drunk, and remember, he was actually charged with this before she had even lodged a complaint of rape!!!! She initially only approached the police to try and find out where her purse had gone... And he was eventually found guilty on the same basis.

    Hence my repetitive comments in this thread about people being drunk and doing what they generally do when they're drunk ;)
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 4:46 pm

    Well as far as I'm aware the CPS would have to look at the case to see if there is a case for prosecution, obviously they felt there was. They would have looked at the evidence available wouldn't they?

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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by AlvoRAM on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 6:00 pm

    chicken wrote:Well as far as I'm aware the CPS would have to look at the case to see if there is a case for prosecution, obviously they felt there was.  They would have looked at the evidence available wouldn't they?

    Yes, and as the law states that if she is intoxicated, she cannot consent. His admitting to having sex with her whilst drunk was enough to bring a charge. That's clear, and cannot be contested. My problem with this whole thing is that it is then up to a court to establish if she was 'that drunk.' Yet key evidence and opinions seem to have been ignored.

    For example, a doctor stated she was not likely to have been drunk enough to lose her memory
    She was able to perform several acts that would have required reasonable balance and awareness with no problems, all caught on cctv at the hotel.
    Then there's the night porter's evidence.

    Rape is one of the scummiest crimes, horrendous for the victims, and real rapists are the scum of the earth. But if Ched is guilty of rape in a criminal sense, then we have to consider that there are now varying degrees of rape. Should we as a society really be treating someone who had sex with a drunk girl, the same as someone who kidnapped a girl off the street by force, held her against her will, physically abused and raped her? Many people will say that rape is rape. But given that Ched has been found guilty of nothing more than having sex with a drunk girl. Then I would definitely disagree. There are degrees of rape, like it or not.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 8:42 pm

    He's actually been found guilty of forcing himself on a girl who wasn't able to stop him and who had said no or was unable, due to intoxication, to say no.  That is what he has been found guilty of, not just simply having sex with a drunk girl as you seem to think that's what it was.

    Whether you believe his version that's up to you, but that is what he has been prosecuted for. The sentence handed down to him reflected the judge's opinion of the severity of the case.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:29 pm

    chicken wrote:He's actually been found guilty of forcing himself on a girl who wasn't able to stop him and who had said no or was unable, due to intoxication, to say no.  That is what he has been found guilty of, not just simply having sex with a drunk girl as you seem to think that's what it was.

    Whether you believe his version that's up to you, but that is what he has been prosecuted for.  The sentence handed down to him reflected the judge's opinion of the severity of the case.

    so why wasn't the other guy found guilty? Does that not even make you think?
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 9:55 pm

    I get the impression that some people read 'convicted rapist' and then refuse to open there minds and dissect the evidence, or even acknowledge there may be more to this than meets the eye.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:31 pm

    purpleram wrote:I get the impression that some people read 'convicted rapist' and then refuse to open there minds and dissect the evidence, or even acknowledge there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    I get the impression that some people are discussing the law as it stands, the verdict
    of the jury and the Appeal Court who heard the case; while others are discussing what
    they think the law ought to be, with particular reference to this case.

    IMHO both are valid topics for discussion but it's hardly surprising that there's not much
    movement since we are not discussing the same thing.



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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by purpleram on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:46 pm

    I think you unwittingly make my point quite well!
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:52 pm

    Argue with this statement....

    .... if she was incapable of consenting to sex with Evans then she was also incapable of consenting to his mate having sex with her immediately prior. Both or neither are guilty, not one is and the other isn't.

    IMO, both are guilty of statutory rape according to the Law as it stands.



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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by RRC on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:03 pm

    purpleram wrote:I think you unwittingly make my point quite well!

    I think my point is a little wider than yours and I'm trying not to to take sides.

    I don't particularly want to discuss whether the law should be changed. I don't know
    enough about it and I have no legal expertise. In general and in the vast majority of
    cases, our legal system works well. There are sufficient procedures to correct any
    miscarriages of justice, though they cannot fully recompense the victim.
    The legal system will never be perfect but what is in real life?

    IMHO this thread is unlikely to get much further. We are just restating our views over
    and over, without adding anything new to the discussion. Enough is enough perhaps?



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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:08 pm

    Mostyn wrote:
    chicken wrote:He's actually been found guilty of forcing himself on a girl who wasn't able to stop him and who had said no or was unable, due to intoxication, to say no.  That is what he has been found guilty of, not just simply having sex with a drunk girl as you seem to think that's what it was.

    Whether you believe his version that's up to you, but that is what he has been prosecuted for.  The sentence handed down to him reflected the judge's opinion of the severity of the case.

    so why wasn't the other guy found guilty? Does that not even make you think?

    Because she agreed to sex with him prior to getting to the hotel room. Evans turned up in a taxi later.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:09 pm

    perhaps worth not posting anything else until there are new developments. I agree.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:10 pm

    chicken wrote:
    Mostyn wrote:
    chicken wrote:He's actually been found guilty of forcing himself on a girl who wasn't able to stop him and who had said no or was unable, due to intoxication, to say no.  That is what he has been found guilty of, not just simply having sex with a drunk girl as you seem to think that's what it was.

    Whether you believe his version that's up to you, but that is what he has been prosecuted for.  The sentence handed down to him reflected the judge's opinion of the severity of the case.

    so why wasn't the other guy found guilty? Does that not even make you think?

    Because she agreed to sex with him prior to getting to the hotel room. Evans turned up in a taxi later.

    But the jury ruled she was incapable of giving consent???????
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:12 pm

    purpleram wrote:I get the impression that some people read 'convicted rapist' and then refuse to open there minds and dissect the evidence, or even acknowledge there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    I think some people refuse to believe that Ched Evans could actually be a rapist. I also think some people are more than happy to call the victim a liar and not the perpetrator a liar.

    It's almost as if some people think they know exactly what went off in that hotel room which is quite bizarre.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:19 pm

    [quote="Mostyn"]
    chicken wrote:
    Mostyn wrote:
    chicken wrote:He's actually been found guilty of forcing himself on a girl who wasn't able to stop him and who had said no or was unable, due to intoxication, to say no.  That is what he has been found guilty of, not just simply having sex with a drunk girl as you seem to think that's what it was.

    Whether you believe his version that's up to you, but that is what he has been prosecuted for.  The sentence handed down to him reflected the judge's opinion of the severity of the case.

    so why wasn't the other guy found guilty? Does that not even make you think?[/quote

    Because she agreed to sex with him prior to getting to the hotel room. Evans turned up in a taxi later.

    But the jury ruled she was incapable of giving consent???????


    You know more about the case than I do so if the jury ruled she was incapable of giving consent to both parties, then both parties are guilty. That will help Evans appeal no doubt.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by chicken on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:21 pm

    Mostyn wrote:perhaps worth not posting anything else until there are new developments. I agree.

    I agree with that too.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Wed 19 Nov 2014, 11:31 pm

    chicken wrote:
    purpleram wrote:I get the impression that some people read 'convicted rapist' and then refuse to open there minds and dissect the evidence, or even acknowledge there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    I think some people refuse to believe that Ched Evans could actually be a rapist. I also think some people are more than happy to call the victim a liar and not the perpetrator a liar.

    It's almost as if some people think they know exactly what went off in that hotel room which is quite bizarre.

    Sadly that is part of society. Most people have an issue with rape and tend to victim blame even if they don't mean to.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Mostyn on Thu 20 Nov 2014, 12:37 am

    Calif_Ramette wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    purpleram wrote:I get the impression that some people read 'convicted rapist' and then refuse to open there minds and dissect the evidence, or even acknowledge there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    I think some people refuse to believe that Ched Evans could actually be a rapist. I also think some people are more than happy to call the victim a liar and not the perpetrator a liar.

    It's almost as if some people think they know exactly what went off in that hotel room which is quite bizarre.

    Sadly that is part of society. Most people have an issue with rape and tend to victim blame even if they don't mean to.

    no, I cannot agree with that. Not enough is done to help 'genuine' rape victims come to live with what's happened and there are many rapists that are never bought to justice.

    This will be the last post I make unless someone responds to me, until there's new information on this case.

    This isn't an open-shut rape case. The 'victim' didn't know she'd had sex. Whilst many rape cases aren't violent, most are traumatic and victims relive the ordeal over and over, and many sadly do blame themselves somehow. In this case (as is proven in the facts of the trial), the victim suffered no such ordeal, and in fact was more than complicit in inviting herself back to that hotel room. The complaint in my opinion, was fuelled by compensation offered to the girl, and by the police and cps trying to improve their conviction rates.

    I don't think I could ever blame a rape victim for being raped. I notice that nobody has disputed any of the facts on Ched Evans site. Whereas Evans (and team) have disputed/questioned/stated many things, that if were incorrect would've pulled up by the press etc immediately. To me, the reaction to what Evans' team have said speaks volumes.

    I also question why the prosecution didn't appeal the lenient sentence at the time of sentencing. There have been no soundbytes coming from the police or prosecution involved, and it stands to reason, they're actually shitting themselves.
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by mace on Thu 20 Nov 2014, 1:59 am

    Mostyn wrote:
    Calif_Ramette wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    purpleram wrote:I get the impression that some people read 'convicted rapist' and then refuse to open there minds and dissect the evidence, or even acknowledge there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    I think some people refuse to believe that Ched Evans could actually be a rapist. I also think some people are more than happy to call the victim a liar and not the perpetrator a liar.

    It's almost as if some people think they know exactly what went off in that hotel room which is quite bizarre.

    Sadly that is part of society. Most people have an issue with rape and tend to victim blame even if they don't mean to.

    no, I cannot agree with that. Not enough is done to help 'genuine' rape victims come to live with what's happened and there are many rapists that are never bought to justice.

    This will be the last post I make unless someone responds to me, until there's new information on this case.

    This isn't an open-shut rape case. The 'victim' didn't know she'd had sex. Whilst many rape cases aren't violent, most are traumatic and victims relive the ordeal over and over, and many sadly do blame themselves somehow. In this case (as is proven in the facts of the trial), the victim suffered no such ordeal, and in fact was more than complicit in inviting herself back to that hotel room. The complaint in my opinion, was fuelled by compensation offered to the girl, and by the police and cps trying to improve their conviction rates.

    I don't think I could ever blame a rape victim for being raped. I notice that nobody has disputed any of the facts on Ched Evans site. Whereas Evans (and team) have disputed/questioned/stated many things, that if were incorrect would've pulled up by the press etc immediately. To me, the reaction to what Evans' team have said speaks volumes.

    I also question why the prosecution didn't appeal the lenient sentence at the time of sentencing. There have been no soundbytes coming from the police or prosecution involved, and it stands to reason, they're actually shitting themselves.
    Time wil tell on the statement,i do agree and fully understand alvo repeated comment ,who as a young lad hasnt done that,we all know you Mostyn and we would not have you down as a rapist mate,however on the flip side would ched mates have him down as a rapist?,i know nothing about the case and i dont care but Alvo has got it bang on with differing degrees,
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    Re: Ched Evans

    Post by Hectors House on Thu 20 Nov 2014, 8:18 am

    chicken wrote:
    purpleram wrote:I get the impression that some people read 'convicted rapist' and then refuse to open there minds and dissect the evidence, or even acknowledge there may be more to this than meets the eye.

    I think some people refuse to believe that Ched Evans could actually be a rapist. I also think some people are more than happy to call the victim a liar and not the perpetrator a liar.

    It's almost as if some people think they know exactly what went off in that hotel room which is quite bizarre.

    Unfortunately quite a few blokes will go for a night out specifically looking for drunk women to have sex with. They will buy a woman drink hoping that this will get em in that girls pants. I remember hearing a taxi driver talking about he always works friday and saturday after club kicking out time and he only picks up p*****d women as they dont know what they are doing(of course he could have been lying)
    It does seem to me that many men- not all- take the view that if a woman gets p****d she deserves all she gets.
    As i said in earlier posts if Evans got p****d and a bloke had shagged him in a hotel room i bet that would have been rape
    Its almost like the days when men used to think that if a woman wore a very short skirt then "she must be asking for it "

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