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    Consistency

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    SawleyRam

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    Consistency

    Post by SawleyRam on Sat 21 Mar 2015, 3:41 pm

    Of referees that is. I've posted this in the 'Football In General' thread because I don't want to use it as an excuse for the Rams results recently but reading a post by our own highly qualified Dutch referee that masquerades under the name of MadAmster in the Welcome To The Longest International Break Thread made me think long and hard on the complexities of the Man In The Middle.

    'Ammy attempts to explain what might have run through the Refs mind in the fouling Bent as the last man, disallowing the goal that the move cumulated in then bringing play back for a free kick without the warranted red card (or even yellow!) for the antagonist.

    'Ammy gave 4 scenarios that the ref should have thought about, 4!.

    The game nowadays is played at a pace that even the top refs struggle with then have to make their instant decisions based on what if's? What might have been? Was it accidental? Has the player taken a dive? Too many interpretations of any of the rules which leads to far too many inconsistencies for the same offence. Help for the ref is needed.

    Assistant Referees I hear you say, well there's a misnomer if there ever was one. From what I can see NO assistance appears to given from these Linesman, for that is what they actually are, when raising their flag it is only to confirm the refs direction. Wrong on all counts.

    As for the 4th assistant he is as useless as a chocolate teapot, stick him in front of a screen somewhere (all games are now covered by TV cameras) to quickly analyse a play back of the game changing decisions to help with the final verdict. It might even stop the players surrounding the ref in order to pressurize him to favour them. (Hopeful I know)  

    Let the rules go back to the days when ball to hand or hand to ball did not matter it's handball either way, was that tackle with or without intent? Don't matter, the foul should not have been committed in the first place.

    We could all give examples all day long but I'm sure you get my drift, give the Referees less to think about and that will lead to more consistency and ease the frustration on management, players and fans alike.


    Last edited by SawleyRam on Sat 21 Mar 2015, 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Repeated myself!)
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    DavesaRam

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by DavesaRam on Sat 21 Mar 2015, 3:57 pm

    Good one, Sawley!

    Another factor is how referees are assessed, and how the FA respond to those assessments. As I understand it, there is an "independent" assessor at each game who reports on the performance of the referee and his assistants, and each team manager also give their own report in. The so-called independent assistant is in fact and active referee, so straight away the door is opened up to claims of "looking after their own". Secondly, do the FA take any notice of the manager's reports? And if so, do they take notice of some managers, and not others? And finally, what do they do in the case of a referee getting a bad report?

    I believe that on occasion referees are effectively suspended, which will only be a reprimand if they are paid on a "per game" basis. Otherwise its a paid holiday. They do get demoted to officiate at lower league games, but then is that fair on the lower levels of football to be sent a duffer because he is no good? Or is it the case that on far too many occasions, it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference whether a ref does well or badly, because he can carry on regardless?

    Whatever is going on, there doesn't seem to be any improvement in performance, quite the opposite, in fact. I remember several years ago, referees were made into professionals so that they could devote their time to their profession, instead of fitting it in with a full time job. So what do these guys do when they are not actually officiating? One would think that with more time to spend on training and development, they would be able to gradually eradicate all the dreadful inconsistencies we see in match after mach, and week in, week out.

    I would think that some use of the available technology is absolutely vital, be it an official watching replays on a monitor screen, or instant replays on the big screen so the whole crowd can see, or something like this. We shouldn't have to put up with huge decisions being made on a whim or fancy, or because of some secret, undeclared preference or loyalty.



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    bramhallram

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by bramhallram on Sat 21 Mar 2015, 4:14 pm

    Just to hammer home the point about consistency (or lack of it), WBA had a player sent off in the second minute against Man City today for being the last defender and doing exactly what the Wolves player did to Bent last night.

    The ref had no hesitation in sending the player off. As it happens he sent the wrong player off, but that was just mistaken identity.

    SM will be apoplectic when he sees it tonight on MOTD.

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by MadAmster on Sat 21 Mar 2015, 4:53 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:


    1. The game nowadays is played at a pace that even the top refs struggle with then have to make their instant decisions based on what if's?

    2. Was it accidental?

    3. Has the player taken a dive?

    4. Assistant Referees I hear you say, well there's a misnomer if there ever was one. From what I can see NO assistance appears to given from these Linesman, for that is what they actually are, when raising their flag it is only to confirm the refs direction. Wrong on all counts.



    5. As for the 4th assistant he is as useless as a chocolate teapot, stick him in front of a screen somewhere (all games are now covered by TV cameras) to quickly analyse a play back of the game changing decisions to help with the final verdict. It might even stop the players surrounding the ref in order to pressurize him to favour them. (Hopeful I know)  


    6. Let the rules go back to the days when ball to hand or hand to ball did not matter it's handball either way, was that tackle with or without intent? Don't matter, the foul should not have been committed in the first place.

    .

    I've taken 6 points from Sawley's thoughts that went through his mind after he read my earlier piece. I will try to give my view on it all. Some may be MY thoughts, others may be based on the rules and/or the interpretations officials are given.

    1. Speed. Take the offside Law as just one example. The right back has the ball, on the right touchline, some 30 yards inside his own half. His left winger is going at speed up the wing. and is already 20 yards inside the attacking half. The referee's assistant (to give him his proper name) has to run one way, at speed, while looking back to see where the ball is. By now he is 40 to 50 yards ahead of the full back. At the point the FB plays a long crossfield ball to the left winger, the asst is running full pelt, looking to see when the FB plays the ball and where the winger is at the moment the ball is played. A human being is not capable of doing all of that simultaneously. IMO, for more reasons than just this one, the offside Law should be scrapped.

    2. Accidental or on purpose, a foul on an opposition player is just that, a foul. The accidental or not argument only comes into play in the decision whether or not to issue a card.

    3. A hard one as so many players these days are very adept at it. Whether I put on my player's, fan's, ref's or coach's hat, I wouldn't harangue a ref for getting conned by a "Tom Daley" moment. Neither would I do similar if he carded a player for diving when he hadn't dived.

    4. Assistant referees are empowered to do more than most of them actually do. The basic role is to signal the ball out of play and offside. They are also empowered to signal fouls if they believe that they are in a better position to see what has happened than the ref. Most use this power very sparingly. They should use it more. Another role is to signal off the ball issues the ref misses. Going back to offside, they are instructed to give the benefit of any doubt they might have to the attacking team.......... but they hardly ever do.

    5. The 4th official. There is a huge lack of knowledge of what his job is. In a nutshell.....

    The fourth official assists with any administrative duties before, during and after the match, as required by the referee

    He is responsible for assisting with substitution procedures during the match

    He has the authority to check the equipment of substitutes before they enter the field of play. If their equipment does not comply with the Laws of the Game, he informs the referee

    He supervises the replacement balls, where required. If the match ball has to be replaced during a match, he provides another ball, on the instruction of the referee, thus keeping the delay to a minimum

    He assists the referee to control the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game. The referee, however, retains the authority to decide on all points connected with play.

    After the match, the fourth official must submit a report to the appropriate authorities on any misconduct or other incident that occurred out of the view of the referee and the assistant referees. The fourth official must advise the referee and his assistants of any report being made - He has the authority to inform the referee of irresponsible behaviour by any occupant of the technical area.

    Most 4th officials do most of the job well. Where they all fall down is
    He assists the referee to control the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game.

    Most people will agree that the 4th official should "interfere" far more often than they do. However, it isn't always the 4th Official's fault. When carrying out his other duties, he is not in a position to watch play. By the very nature of his many roles he isn't going to be able to watch and make a judgment on much of what goes on. In many games the officials agree among themselves that #4 won't interfere. Part of that is down to his close proximity to the trainers and subs who he has in his ear for much of the game. If he really did his job properly he'd permanently have one trainer or the other in his ear. Consequently, that means that he doesn't do the most important part of his job. That means that one side can't complain that he only saw things from them and not from the other side. Wrong? Yes, but oh so very understandable.

    Think about it. How much more often would he be beleaguered if he started helping the ref properly? There would be utter chaos.

    6. I have already mentioned in #2 that, when it comes to fouling a player, intent is only part of the equation when you decide whether or not to issue a card. As for hand ball the Law states that a direct free kick will be awarded when a player
    handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
    . That part of free kick Law is the only one that HASN'T changed. All others are now as explained in #2. For instance, was he tripped yes or no. To help with understanding the hand ball part of the Law I will try to explain the translation of the letter of the Law to how a ref is instructed to apply it.

    They now ask the referee to consider the proximity of the potential offender to the person last playing the ball, the speed of the ball and importantly whether the offender's arms are in a natural or unnatural position.
    So the question of intent is now, did the offender deliberately place his arms in an unnatural position to increase the chances of the ball hitting him?
    If the answer to that is yes then it is correct to penalise that player even though it used to be argued that was ball to hand.

    I hope that I have helped your understanding of what is and what isn't with regard to a referee and his little helpers...............





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    SawleyRam

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by SawleyRam on Sat 21 Mar 2015, 6:00 pm

    MadAmster wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:


    1. The game nowadays is played at a pace that even the top refs struggle with then have to make their instant decisions based on what if's?

    2. Was it accidental?

    3. Has the player taken a dive?

    4. Assistant Referees I hear you say, well there's a misnomer if there ever was one. From what I can see NO assistance appears to given from these Linesman, for that is what they actually are, when raising their flag it is only to confirm the refs direction. Wrong on all counts.



    5. As for the 4th assistant he is as useless as a chocolate teapot, stick him in front of a screen somewhere (all games are now covered by TV cameras) to quickly analyse a play back of the game changing decisions to help with the final verdict. It might even stop the players surrounding the ref in order to pressurize him to favour them. (Hopeful I know)  


    6. Let the rules go back to the days when ball to hand or hand to ball did not matter it's handball either way, was that tackle with or without intent? Don't matter, the foul should not have been committed in the first place.

    .

    I've taken 6 points from Sawley's thoughts that went through his mind after he read my earlier piece. I will try to give my view on it all. Some may be MY thoughts, others may be based on the rules and/or the interpretations officials are given.

    1. Speed. Take the offside Law as just one example. The right back has the ball, on the right touchline, some 30 yards inside his own half. His left winger is going at speed up the wing. and is already 20 yards inside the attacking half. The referee's assistant (to give him his proper name) has to run one way, at speed, while looking back to see where the ball is. By now he is 40 to 50 yards ahead of the full back. At the point the FB plays a long crossfield ball to the left winger, the asst is running full pelt, looking to see when the FB plays the ball and where the winger is at the moment the ball is played. A human being is not capable of doing all of that simultaneously. IMO, for more reasons than just this one, the offside Law should be scrapped.

    2. Accidental or on purpose, a foul on an opposition player is just that, a foul. The accidental or not  argument only comes into play in the decision whether or not to issue a card.

    3. A hard one as so many players these days are very adept at it. Whether I put on my player's, fan's, ref's or coach's hat, I wouldn't harangue a ref for getting conned by a "Tom Daley" moment. Neither would I do similar if he carded a player for diving when he hadn't dived.

    4. Assistant referees are empowered to do more than most of them actually do. The basic role is to signal the ball out of play and offside. They are also empowered to signal fouls if they believe that they are in a better position to see what has happened than the ref. Most use this power very sparingly. They should use it more. Another role is to signal off the ball issues the ref misses. Going back to offside, they are instructed to give the benefit of any doubt they might have to the attacking team.......... but they hardly ever do.

    5. The 4th official. There is a huge lack of knowledge of what his job is. In a nutshell.....

    The fourth official assists with any administrative duties before, during and after the match, as required by the referee

    He is responsible for assisting with substitution procedures during the match

    He has the authority to check the equipment of substitutes before they enter the field of play. If their equipment does not comply with the Laws of the Game, he informs the referee

    He supervises the replacement balls, where required. If the match ball has to be replaced during a match, he provides another ball, on the instruction of the referee, thus keeping the delay to a minimum

    He assists the referee to control the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game. The referee, however, retains the authority to decide on all points connected with play.

    After the match, the fourth official must submit a report to the appropriate authorities on any misconduct or other incident that occurred out of the view of the referee and the assistant referees. The fourth official must advise the referee and his assistants of any report being made - He has the authority to inform the referee of irresponsible behaviour by any occupant of the technical area.

    Most 4th officials do most of the job well. Where they all fall down is
    He assists the referee to control the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game.

    Most people will agree that the 4th official should "interfere" far more often than they do. However, it isn't always the 4th Official's fault. When carrying out his other duties, he is not in a position to watch play. By the very nature of his many roles he isn't going to be able to watch and make a judgment on much of what goes on. In many games the officials agree among themselves that #4 won't interfere. Part of that is down to his close proximity to the trainers and subs who he has in his ear for much of the game. If he really did his job properly he'd permanently have one trainer or the other in his ear. Consequently, that means that he doesn't do the most important part of his job. That means that one side can't complain that he only saw things from them and not from the other side. Wrong? Yes, but oh so very understandable.

    Think about it. How much more often would he be beleaguered if he started helping the ref properly? There would be utter chaos.

    6. I have already mentioned in #2 that, when it comes to fouling a player, intent is only part of the equation when you decide whether or not to issue a card. As for hand ball the Law states that a direct free kick will be awarded when a player
    handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
    . That part of free kick Law is the only one that HASN'T changed. All others are now as explained in #2. For instance, was he tripped yes or no. To help with understanding the hand ball part of the Law I will try to explain the translation of the letter of the Law to how a ref is instructed to apply it.

    They now ask the referee to consider the proximity of the potential offender to the person last playing the ball, the speed of the ball and importantly whether the offender's arms are in a natural or unnatural position.
    So the question of intent is now, did the offender deliberately place his arms in an unnatural position to increase the chances of the ball hitting him?
    If the answer to that is yes then it is correct to penalise that player even though it used to be argued that was ball to hand.

    I hope that I have helped your understanding of what is and what isn't with regard to a referee and his little helpers...............



    That was very helpful 'Ammy but as a qualified ref what are your personal thoughts on:

    Stick him in front of a screen somewhere (all games are now covered by TV cameras) to quickly analyse a play back of the game changing decisions to help with the final verdict. It might even stop the players surrounding the ref in order to pressurize him to favour them. (Hopeful I know) and simplify the rules to give the ref less to think about during the game?

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    DavesaRam

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by DavesaRam on Sat 21 Mar 2015, 7:38 pm

    Interesting event while watching the England/France rugby match. At one point the ref, who was much smaller than the players, was giving four burly rugby players a right telling off, then instructed the team captains to instruct the teams that the sort of behaviour being dealt with was unnacceptable, and then sent the [layes off on their way......... and off they trotted, like naught schoolkids having had their ears clipped.

    How have the Rugby authorities managed to keep this level of authority, and the clubs/nations managed to keep the players with this level of respect?

    FA: are you watching?



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    MadAmster

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by MadAmster on Sun 22 Mar 2015, 11:27 am

    Sawley, apart from the "helping the ref" bit which most 4th officials do not do, the other tasks they perform are necessary so you need someone there to do the job. I do, however, think that there should be a video ref just like they have in Rugby League and also in the Six Nations RU championship. That would mean an extra official at every game but it would help tremendously which is probably why it will never happen.

    DavesaRam, easy one to answer. from the youngest ages (U8 I think rugby starts at) they are taught that the ref is all powerful and is to be obeyed at all costs. That is backed up by the 10 yard rule. Complain about a decision and the kick is moved 10 yards nearer the try line. Complain again and it moves another 10 etc etc. In theory you could give a penalty away a yard from your opponents try line and 5 complaints later, the penalty is kickable and you get 3 points against you. I used to play the egg game and remember one time I scored a try, the opponents argued the toss with the ref. We got however many points it was for a try at the time, I had scored under the posts so the 2 points for the conversion were simple. Then, for arguing, the ref restarted the game, on the half way line with a penalty to us for their arguing with the ref. Jim Heathcote put the penalty between the posts for another 3 points to us. That, in a nutshell, is why Rugby refs are not argued with.

    There was also an incident in one of the internationals yesterday where a player got injured. The trainer came on and tended to the player. Do that in football and all the falling over to disrupt the opponents attack or gain a respite or just to run the clock down will stop as the game continues and, because you are on the floor, your team is a player light..........



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    SawleyRam

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by SawleyRam on Sun 22 Mar 2015, 3:04 pm

    MadAmster wrote:Sawley, apart from the "helping the ref" bit which most 4th officials do not do, the other tasks they perform are necessary so you need someone there to do the job. I do, however, think that there should be a video ref just like they have in Rugby League and also in the Six Nations RU championship. That would mean an extra official at every game but it would help tremendously  which is probably why it will never happen.

    DavesaRam, easy one to answer. from the youngest ages (U8 I think rugby starts at) they are taught that the ref is all powerful and is to be obeyed at all costs. That is backed up by the 10 yard rule. Complain about a decision and the kick is moved 10 yards nearer the try line. Complain again and it moves another 10 etc etc. In theory you could give a penalty away a yard from your opponents try line and 5 complaints later, the penalty is kickable and you get 3 points against you. I used to play the egg game and remember one time I scored a try, the opponents argued the toss with the ref. We got however many points it was for a try at the time, I had scored under the posts so the 2 points for the conversion were simple. Then, for arguing, the ref restarted the game, on the half way line with a penalty to us for their arguing with the ref. Jim Heathcote put the penalty between the posts for another 3 points to us. That, in a nutshell, is why Rugby refs are not argued with.

    There was also an incident in one of the internationals yesterday where a player got injured. The trainer came on and tended to the player. Do that in football and all the falling over to disrupt the opponents attack or gain a respite or just to run the clock down will stop as the game continues and, because you are on the floor, your team is a player light..........

    That will never happen in football 'Ammy, it's too much like common sense!
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    Re: Consistency

    Post by RRC on Sun 22 Mar 2015, 3:16 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:Sawley, apart from the "helping the ref" bit which most 4th officials do not do, the other tasks they perform are necessary so you need someone there to do the job. I do, however, think that there should be a video ref just like they have in Rugby League and also in the Six Nations RU championship. That would mean an extra official at every game but it would help tremendously  which is probably why it will never happen.

    DavesaRam, easy one to answer. from the youngest ages (U8 I think rugby starts at) they are taught that the ref is all powerful and is to be obeyed at all costs. That is backed up by the 10 yard rule. Complain about a decision and the kick is moved 10 yards nearer the try line. Complain again and it moves another 10 etc etc. In theory you could give a penalty away a yard from your opponents try line and 5 complaints later, the penalty is kickable and you get 3 points against you. I used to play the egg game and remember one time I scored a try, the opponents argued the toss with the ref. We got however many points it was for a try at the time, I had scored under the posts so the 2 points for the conversion were simple. Then, for arguing, the ref restarted the game, on the half way line with a penalty to us for their arguing with the ref. Jim Heathcote put the penalty between the posts for another 3 points to us. That, in a nutshell, is why Rugby refs are not argued with.

    There was also an incident in one of the internationals yesterday where a player got injured. The trainer came on and tended to the player. Do that in football and all the falling over to disrupt the opponents attack or gain a respite or just to run the clock down will stop as the game continues and, because you are on the floor, your team is a player light..........

    That will never happen in football 'Ammy, it's too much like common sense!

    There's no need to halt play at all except for a foul (and free kick) or a head injury.

    If a player wants a lay down, just ignore him and he'll probably get up quick enough.
    If not, he can limp off or wait for a break in play to get attention from the physio.



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    MadAmster

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by MadAmster on Sun 22 Mar 2015, 4:16 pm

    On the same subject, I have long advocated having refs in at the FA every Monday to look at contentious decisions and rule on them.

    Wrongly disallowed goals or wrongly allowed goals couldn't be changed but, based on the video evidence, wrongly issued cards of both colours could be rescinded and cards that should have been given could be awarded retrospectively. That would have a beneficial effect in x ways.

    1. It would show refs what to look for and concentrate on with regard to players' antics

    2. It would provide refs with info regarding their own shortcomings and they could receive the necessary tutoring

    3. It would stop most players doing the stuff we fans hate as they know they will found out, carded and banned far more often than they are now

    BTW - I am sensible enough to know it aint gonna happen.





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    rjrules71

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    Re: Consistency

    Post by rjrules71 on Sun 22 Mar 2015, 5:21 pm

    The part of play that irritates me the most is the fact that most players/teams use their apportioned yellow cards to foul and cheat on a team scale.
    Managers and captains must impose this at training for it has now become such a part of the game.

    The "taking one for the team" foul really gets my dander up, even when a RAM commits the foul.

    Players deliberately using this as a tactic to stop an opponent gaining advantage should be given a straight red.
    I understand this "professional foul" is supposed to be outlawed, but I will show you 10 of the same on any given Saturday.
    If we are to have any hope of the control of the game returning to the officials, things will have to toughen up IMHO.
    More red cards and longer sentences will soon get things back again as managers and players realise that foul play is NOT a part of the game.



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