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    Dangerous precedent?

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    MadAmster

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    Dangerous precedent?

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 1:36 pm

    Sky Sports News wrote:England's Under-19 women's football team have qualified for the European Championship in dramatic fashion after scoring a penalty in a replay of the closing moments of their game against Norway.

    Defender Leah Williamson scored the spot-kick in the sixth minute of stoppage time to level the score at 2-2 against Norway, sending England through to the finals in Israel in July.

    During the original match on Saturday, Norway were winning 2-1 when England was awarded a penalty.

    Williamson scored from the spot, but German referee Marija Kurtes disallowed the goal because an England player had entered the box before she kicked the ball.

    Norway then closed out the remaining minute of the game and won that match 2-1.

    UEFA rules state the referee should have ordered the penalty to be re-taken and its Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Body took the unprecedented step of ordering the final moments of the game to be replayed again at the Seaview Stadium in Belfast on Thursday night.

    The football body said Ms Kurtes had been sent home from the qualifying event in Northern Ireland.

    Both teams had played their final qualifying games in Group Four earlier on Thursday - with England beating Switzerland 3-1 and Norway defeating Northern Ireland 8-1.

    They were both level on six points before the replayed seconds, with England qualifying on goal difference after the 2-2 draw.

    So, a ref makes a mistake that changed the course of a tournament. Norway qualified due to the ref's error. England complained because of the mistake. UEFA agreed and ordered the last 18 seconds to be replayed, starting with the retake of England's penalty. The penalty went in, England drew the game and went through at the expense of Norway.

    You may well think that it was right and fair to order the replay of those final seconds and justice prevailed.

    However, does this open up a whole can of worms? Could DCFC take this precedent and contest the penalty and free kick goals Birmingham scored to gain a 2-2 draw a couple of weeks ago? We'd be much closer to the top 4 and have much more of a chance of making the top two.

    My own view is that :

    1. UEFA was wrong to order the replay
    2. DCFC should not appeal the BCFC game.

    Ref's make errors, they are human. Their errors cannot be rectified under most circumstances after a match has ended. It should stay that way. Allowing changes would cause clubs to argue, post match, a high number of decisions. Just about every match would be replayed from a certain point. What to do with goals scored or wrongly disallowed after the point in the original game drom where the restart will occur? Are they disallowed?

    IMO, UEFA should reverse the decision (brave as it was) or chaos will reign.


    Last edited by MadAmster on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total



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    CornwallRam

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by CornwallRam on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 1:42 pm

    I assume that she will be officiating at our play-off final if get there this season.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 1:48 pm

    CornwallRam wrote:I assume that she will be officiating at our play-off final if get there this season.

    I posted originally before adding my thoughts. I have now done so, you might like to read them CR



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    CornwallRam

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by CornwallRam on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 2:04 pm

    MadAmster wrote:
    CornwallRam wrote:I assume that she will be officiating at our play-off final if get there this season.

    I posted originally before adding my thoughts. I have now done so, you might like to read them CR

    I do think it can only be bad for the game if decisions like this are overturned and matches replayed. The only reason that matches should be replayed is if it is proved that the ref showed deliberate bias which affected the outcome - which in most cases would be for financial gain, but could also be something like a recording of a conversation to the effect of 'I made sure that Derby couldn't win because the crowd annoyed me'. Honest mistakes should just be put down as being part of the game.

    It makes sense to review all cards. Where a card is obviously incorrect it should be rescinded afterwards from a disciplinary perspective, but no account should be taken of the effect a card had during the game.

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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:05 pm

    I think that replaying the whole game would have been a more sensible solution. Most decisions are down to a refs interpretation but this was a case of the ref not knowing the laws of the game which cannot be allowed to stand. Most fans would know this basic law, the fact that she did not is astounding in my opinion.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by Stockport Ram on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:22 pm

    We would eventually move so far away from the essence of the game that we would consider the eradication of human error as a laudable objective.

    If we ever reach this stage, the essence of football is dead.



    No matter how wrong the decision was, as long as there is no hint of bribery or a betting syndicate influencing the result, then the original result has to stand.
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    whestonram

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by whestonram on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:32 pm

    MadAmster wrote:
    Sky Sports News wrote:England's Under-19 women's football team have qualified for the European Championship in dramatic fashion after scoring a penalty in a replay of the closing moments of their game against Norway.

    Defender Leah Williamson scored the spot-kick in the sixth minute of stoppage time to level the score at 2-2 against Norway, sending England through to the finals in Israel in July.

    During the original match on Saturday, Norway were winning 2-1 when England was awarded a penalty.

    Williamson scored from the spot, but German referee Marija Kurtes disallowed the goal because an England player had entered the box before she kicked the ball.

    Norway then closed out the remaining minute of the game and won that match 2-1.

    UEFA rules state the referee should have ordered the penalty to be re-taken and its Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Body took the unprecedented step of ordering the final moments of the game to be replayed again at the Seaview Stadium in Belfast on Thursday night.

    The football body said Ms Kurtes had been sent home from the qualifying event in Northern Ireland.

    Both teams had played their final qualifying games in Group Four earlier on Thursday - with England beating Switzerland 3-1 and Norway defeating Northern Ireland 8-1.

    They were both level on six points before the replayed seconds, with England qualifying on goal difference after the 2-2 draw.

    So, a ref makes a mistake that changed the course of a tournament. Norway qualified due to the ref's error. England complained because of the mistake. UEFA agreed and ordered the last 18 seconds to be replayed, starting with the retake of England's penalty. The penalty went in, England drew the game and went through at the expense of Norway.

    You may well think that it was right and fair to order the replay of those final seconds and justice prevailed.

    However, does this open up a whole can of worms? Could DCFC take this precedent and contest the penalty and free kick goals Birmingham scored to gain a 2-2 draw a couple of weeks ago? We'd be much closer to the top 4 and have much more of a chance of making the top two.

    My own view is that :

    1. UEFA was wrong to order the replay
    2. DCFC should not appeal the BCFC game.

    Ref's make errors, they are human. Their errors cannot be rectified under most circumstances after a match has ended. It should stay that way. Allowing changes would cause clubs to argue, post match, a high number of decisions. Just about every match would be replayed from a certain point. What to do with goals scored or wrongly disallowed after the point in the original game drom where the restart will occur? Are they disallowed?

    IMO, UEFA should reverse the decision (brave as it was) or chaos will reign.

    Quite agree - now this has been done, Uefa will have to decide where it draws the line, and they will, I'm sure, regret having set this precedent. The only line that can be drawn is the one that existed till now - the ref's decision (however flawed) is final. Now it's not final.

    And thinking of decisions we should appeal and ask for replays, I'd go for the sending off of Chris Martin at Burnley, where the ref was clearly determined to make an example of him and cost us that match and automatic propomtion last year.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 5:29 pm

    But all of the examples that have been thrown up on this thread are matters of opinion or interpretation. The penalty MUST be retaken, it isn't open to the referees opinion or interpretation.

    This is a bery rare situation where the laws are clear but haven't been applied. It is a very clear precedent if the referee fails to apply the laws as they stand. If she had played 30 minutes in the second half with no reason or logic then this precedent would sensibly apply, if it is just about a decision made during a game by a referee based on opinion or interpretation then this precedent clearly doesn't apply.
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    Mitten State Ram

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by Mitten State Ram on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 6:42 pm

    Sound brilliant. Let's rewind the clock to the last five minutes of our home game against Norwich and not let them have a soft free-kick that led to their equalizer. We can start the season over from that point.



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    RRC
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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by RRC on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 7:06 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:But all of the examples that have been thrown up on this thread are matters of opinion or interpretation. The penalty MUST be retaken, it isn't open to the referees opinion or interpretation.

    This is a bery rare situation where the laws are clear but haven't been applied. It is a very clear precedent if the referee fails to apply the laws as they stand. If she had played 30 minutes in the second half with no reason or logic then this precedent would sensibly apply, if it is just about a decision made during a game by a referee based on opinion or interpretation then this precedent clearly doesn't apply.

    You're right in that it was a clear mistake - there's no way anyone can argue about that.

    But what if it had happened at the end of the first half? Do they replay the second half?

    Re-playing any part of a game is the thin end of a potentially huge wedge.

    Mistakes happen and life isn't always fair - sometimes we have to live with it.



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    MadAmster

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 7:35 pm

    The BCFC was a clear mistake too Loughie. Ince got between man and ball. Not even a foul. The 2 missed free kicks to Derby were also clear mistakes. They were fouls that had to be given in accordance with the Laws.

    However, I am NOT advocating replaying the game, although it would be nice if it were. The whole point of the thread is that the UEFA decision is the thin end of the edge and shouldn't have been made.

    I am also flabbergasted that a ref at a game at this level didn't know the Laws.



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    Mucker1884

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    Re: Dangerous precedent?

    Post by Mucker1884 on Fri 10 Apr 2015, 9:11 pm

    MadAmster wrote:The BCFC was a clear mistake too Loughie. Ince got between man and ball. Not even a foul. The 2 missed free kicks to Derby were also clear mistakes. They were fouls that had to be given in accordance with the Laws...


    ...I am also flabbergasted that a ref at a game at this level didn't know the Laws.



    I'm with Loughie on this.  
    That first part of your post above, Ammy, is still down to your opinion, and interpretation of the laws.  In this case, you get the advantage of slow-mo & replays, to possibly help you come to your opinion.  The ref only had the one chance, the one view, the one split second. He may well have got it wrong, but he got his opinion wrong, not the laws of the game.

    Disallowing a penalty, and not ordering a re-kick, because an attacking player entered the area, is not down to the ref's interpretation of the law, it is down to not knowing, ignoring, or even forgetting that law!  She knew the goal couldn't stand... but didn't know what to do next!

    The same would apply if the ball went out of play down the side line, and the ref allowed the player to kick the ball in, where we'd all be expecting a throw in!
    The same would apply if the first kick of the game went directly back to the keeper (and not forward over the half way line), and the ref allowed things to continue.
    These are wrong in the true sense.  Rules haven't been followed.  There is no opinion, just fact.  They need to be put right.  Without a replay, I'm not sure how that can be done?

    Opinions, interpretations, short-sightedness etc are annoying, but we have to live with them!  
    Did the ball go fully over the goal line or not?  Interpretation.
    Did that ball hit the side netting from outside the post, or inside?  Shortsightedness
    Did Miles Addison foul before scoring two perfectly good goals in the dying seconds... twice?  Pay off... Opinion!
    Did the goal kick leave the area?  Did the keeper step outside the area or not whilst holding the ball?  Was that a foul?  Did Maradonna put that in with his hand?  The ref may well get all of these wrong, but for whatever reason, it was his (or her) interpretation, or view, and should they be proven wrong, the decision should still stand... and the ref punished for a poor performance, ideally.

    If the ref spotted Maradonna handled the ball in, disallowed the goal, and gave England a free kick, that should stand.  If he'd have seen all that, but given England a penalty for it, instead of a free kick in our own area, that is clearly not the rule, and something would have had to be done about it.

    Totally with you on the flabbergated remark though!

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