COME ON YOU RAMS the Derby County fans forum

a friendly place to chat about Derby County, football and life


    Hillsborough inquest

    Share
    avatar
    derbygee

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1959
    First ever game : Swansea
    Number of posts : 767
    Registration date : 2015-05-06
    Points : 840
    Location : in front of my computer

    Hillsborough inquest

    Post by derbygee on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 1:20 pm

    unlawful killing

    Police actions to blame

    Stadium at fault

    Ambulance service at fault

    Fans totally exonerated


    Now let's nail the lying coppers, politicians and Murdoch's shitty little rag
    avatar
    Boris

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Ipswich 2 Rams 6 1976
    Number of posts : 6707
    Registration date : 2009-02-23
    Points : 7731
    Age : 51
    Location : Shropshire

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 1:35 pm

    Nice to see the truth come out and justice done...

    http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/remembering-how-the-sun-covered-the-hillsborough-disaster-27-years-ago--WJ6XXbCobW
    avatar
    SawleyRam

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1954
    First ever game : 1956
    Number of posts : 4356
    Registration date : 2011-01-11
    Points : 5820
    Age : 69
    Location : Username gives it away!

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 3:46 pm

    My thoughts on this terrible tragedy will not be popular, the same way as the truth has been treated but the whole thing was and has been manipulated from day one.

    Unlawful killing - Yes it was

    Police actions to blame - How? by closing the gates when the stadium was full?

    Stadium at fault - How? by agreeing that the gates should be shut for safety reasons? For being built in the first place?

    Ambulance service at fault - How? by being delayed by the crowds who were fighting to get out?

    Fans totally exonerated - How? Does that include the drunks that caused the problem, the ones with no tickets who were scaling the outside fence in order to gain free entry and causing others to be crushed which in turn lead to the outside gates to be opened to avoid a possible tragedy in that area and allowed thousands of non- payers to storm into the ground and cause the crushing in the first place?

    And the only paper that dare print the truth? Totally castigated, because for once it did print the truth.

    The innocents that died that day has left others behind that are scarred forever and yes, the Police, Ambulance and the Stadium did have a role to play in this terrible occurrence, but the hierarchy who made the decision to have fences erected at all football grounds were the biggest culprits, have they along with the others who got in for free after the kick off taken their share of the blame? Of course not, they hide behind the easy targets and blame others.

    Alongside those 96 victims who died that day a 97th died, it was called THE TRUTH.
    avatar
    Boris

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Ipswich 2 Rams 6 1976
    Number of posts : 6707
    Registration date : 2009-02-23
    Points : 7731
    Age : 51
    Location : Shropshire

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 5:00 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:My thoughts on this terrible tragedy will not be popular, the same way as the truth has been treated but the whole thing was and has been manipulated from day one.

    Unlawful killing - Yes it was

    Police actions to blame - How? by closing the gates when the stadium was full?

    Stadium at fault - How? by agreeing that the gates should be shut for safety reasons? For being built in the first place?

    Ambulance service at fault - How? by being delayed by the crowds who were fighting to get out?

    Fans totally exonerated - How? Does that include the drunks that caused the problem, the ones with no tickets who were scaling the outside fence in order to gain free entry and causing others to be crushed which in turn lead to the outside gates to be opened to avoid a possible tragedy in that area and allowed thousands of non- payers to storm into the ground and cause the crushing in the first place?

    And the only paper that dare print the truth? Totally castigated, because for once it did print the truth.

    The innocents that died that day has left others behind that are scarred forever and yes, the Police, Ambulance and the Stadium did have a role to play in this terrible occurrence, but the hierarchy who made the decision to have fences erected at all football grounds were the biggest culprits, have they along with the others who got in for free after the kick off taken their share of the blame? Of course not, they hide behind the easy targets and blame others.

    Alongside those 96 victims who died that day a 97th died, it was called THE TRUTH.

    Have you not followed the case Sawley? The jury were privy to all the information and evidence and came to a judgement on the facts, not the despicable dross and lies printed in the Sun that even they now agree was false. The police covered up the truth to protect their incompetence. Now some of those responsible will have to answer for their actions in the courts, but I would expect guilty pleas. The police now accept totally the outcome and verdict based on the facts. Perhaps now the families that have remained so dignified throughout this sordid affair can now get a little bit of closure after 27 years.
    avatar
    norfolkram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Watney Cup Final
    Number of posts : 513
    Registration date : 2014-11-19
    Points : 546
    Location : west norfolk

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by norfolkram on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 6:07 pm

    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:My thoughts on this terrible tragedy will not be popular, the same way as the truth has been treated but the whole thing was and has been manipulated from day one.

    Unlawful killing - Yes it was

    Police actions to blame - How? by closing the gates when the stadium was full?

    Stadium at fault - How? by agreeing that the gates should be shut for safety reasons? For being built in the first place?

    Ambulance service at fault - How? by being delayed by the crowds who were fighting to get out?

    Fans totally exonerated - How? Does that include the drunks that caused the problem, the ones with no tickets who were scaling the outside fence in order to gain free entry and causing others to be crushed which in turn lead to the outside gates to be opened to avoid a possible tragedy in that area and allowed thousands of non- payers to storm into the ground and cause the crushing in the first place?

    And the only paper that dare print the truth? Totally castigated, because for once it did print the truth.

    The innocents that died that day has left others behind that are scarred forever and yes, the Police, Ambulance and the Stadium did have a role to play in this terrible occurrence, but the hierarchy who made the decision to have fences erected at all football grounds were the biggest culprits, have they along with the others who got in for free after the kick off taken their share of the blame? Of course not, they hide behind the easy targets and blame others.

    Alongside those 96 victims who died that day a 97th died, it was called THE TRUTH.

    Have you not followed the case Sawley? The jury were privy to all the information and evidence and came to a judgement on the facts, not the despicable dross and lies printed in the Sun that even they now agree was false. The police covered up the truth to protect their incompetence. Now some of those responsible will have to answer for their actions in the courts, but I would expect guilty pleas. The police now accept totally the outcome and verdict based on the facts. Perhaps now the families that have remained so dignified throughout this sordid affair can now get a little bit of closure after 27 years.


    The fans exonerated don't make me laugh, the same fans with blood on their hands from Heysel. How easy it is to forget what football was like in the 70/80s and the reasons why the fences were there. The only innocents were the 96 dead
    avatar
    Stockport Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1971
    First ever game : Newcastle (h) Easter 1983 I think
    Number of posts : 5205
    Registration date : 2010-03-22
    Points : 5753
    Age : 51
    Location : That's a toughie.......

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Stockport Ram on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 6:21 pm

    Justice.


    At last.
    avatar
    SawleyRam

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1954
    First ever game : 1956
    Number of posts : 4356
    Registration date : 2011-01-11
    Points : 5820
    Age : 69
    Location : Username gives it away!

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 6:27 pm

    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:My thoughts on this terrible tragedy will not be popular, the same way as the truth has been treated but the whole thing was and has been manipulated from day one.

    Unlawful killing - Yes it was

    Police actions to blame - How? by closing the gates when the stadium was full?

    Stadium at fault - How? by agreeing that the gates should be shut for safety reasons? For being built in the first place?

    Ambulance service at fault - How? by being delayed by the crowds who were fighting to get out?

    Fans totally exonerated - How? Does that include the drunks that caused the problem, the ones with no tickets who were scaling the outside fence in order to gain free entry and causing others to be crushed which in turn lead to the outside gates to be opened to avoid a possible tragedy in that area and allowed thousands of non- payers to storm into the ground and cause the crushing in the first place?

    And the only paper that dare print the truth? Totally castigated, because for once it did print the truth.

    The innocents that died that day has left others behind that are scarred forever and yes, the Police, Ambulance and the Stadium did have a role to play in this terrible occurrence, but the hierarchy who made the decision to have fences erected at all football grounds were the biggest culprits, have they along with the others who got in for free after the kick off taken their share of the blame? Of course not, they hide behind the easy targets and blame others.

    Alongside those 96 victims who died that day a 97th died, it was called THE TRUTH.

    Have you not followed the case Sawley? The jury were privy to all the information and evidence and came to a judgement on the facts, not the despicable dross and lies printed in the Sun that even they now agree was false. The police covered up the truth to protect their incompetence. Now some of those responsible will have to answer for their actions in the courts, but I would expect guilty pleas. The police now accept totally the outcome and verdict based on the facts. Perhaps now the families that have remained so dignified throughout this sordid affair can now get a little bit of closure after 27 years.

    Do I have to follow the case Boris? I saw the live reports along with footage shortly afterwards of people trying to get in and causing problems that has never been shown again why is that?

    The police covering up against the poor judgement they might have shown by not closing off the tunnels which gave access to the concourse should not have happened but the emergency services to be blamed is just nonsense.

    Trouble is that yet again the too long passage of time has blunted the truth. This enquiry 27 years too late should have never taken place. With this verdict the guilty have been ignored to leave those who were put into an impossible situation to be dammed.
    avatar
    Boris

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Ipswich 2 Rams 6 1976
    Number of posts : 6707
    Registration date : 2009-02-23
    Points : 7731
    Age : 51
    Location : Shropshire

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 6:51 pm

    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast
    avatar
    SawleyRam

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1954
    First ever game : 1956
    Number of posts : 4356
    Registration date : 2011-01-11
    Points : 5820
    Age : 69
    Location : Username gives it away!

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 7:15 pm

    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.
    avatar
    Boris

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Ipswich 2 Rams 6 1976
    Number of posts : 6707
    Registration date : 2009-02-23
    Points : 7731
    Age : 51
    Location : Shropshire

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 7:31 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.

    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink
    avatar
    Loughborough Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    Number of posts : 11111
    Registration date : 2009-02-14
    Points : 13476
    Location : Doghouse

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 7:33 pm

    Liverpool fans had and still do on occassions, have a justified reputation (often self celebrated), for arriving late and forcing their way in if they didn't/don't have tickets.

    I don't think that anybody is condoning the cover ups by the police, why would they, however some responsibility should be shouldered by those who entered the ground without a ticket, of which there were clearly many.
    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by purpleram on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 7:39 pm

    I'm torn on this.
    100% the poor people who died were innocent.
    Definitely it was badly Policed, none existent or failed emergency plan.
    There was a systematic attempt to cover their failings up by the authorities.
    The ground was, is, IMO a death trap.

    But watching footage from the day, there didn't look to be an inch of space in any section of the Leppings lane stand, or elsewhere in the ground. There was still masses of fans trying to get in at both corners of the Leppings lane end. They either sold too many tickets or many were there without tickets.

    There were many causes, but I'm finding hard to believe that the Fans were blameless.
    avatar
    derbygee

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1959
    First ever game : Swansea
    Number of posts : 767
    Registration date : 2015-05-06
    Points : 840
    Location : in front of my computer

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by derbygee on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 7:58 pm

    I gave evidence to the original West Midlands investigation. On the day Derby were playing Utd at Old Trafford I was on Morning shift in Rotherham BOC plant till 1230. By the time I got home to pick up the Mrs and Kids it was about 1 o'clock. Our route to Manchester mirrored the route the Liverpool fans took over Woodhead. We got onto the Stocksbridge bypass about 1.30. At the roundabout starting the bypass the police had stopped Liverpools buses and cars and were holding them out of town. My Mrs said they'll never get to the ground in time. We drove past stationary traffic with flags and banners for the next 45 minutes. Thousands of Liverpool fans arrived late because the police stopped them out of town as a deliberate tactic tho keep them out of the pub. . It wasn't hoards of drunken scousers as the propaganda of the day would have you believe, It was IMHO a deliberately  manufactured traffic jam by the police designed deliberately to keep them out of the town and the pubs. Compound that by the lousy design of the Leppings Lane end in which only a couple of weeks earlier I had to force my way out with my Mrs and kids and a mate I feared for as he had emphysema and almost collapsed. We made it back out of the tunnel and round into a side pen. Personally I'd like to see tat shit tip of a ground bulldozed and the ignorant stewards that man it jobless for life.

    We all know how the scum in Old Trafford behaved but my abiding memory of that day is driving past a 20 mile line of cars and buses with scarves and banners flying on the way to Manchester and the fasces of the people in the cars we passed on the way home, only one care, an orange marina had a limp scarf hanging from the window.
    avatar
    purpleram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 2983
    Registration date : 2009-04-14
    Points : 3217
    Location : Spondon

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by purpleram on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 8:19 pm

    'The scum in Old Trafford', I was also there, and any initial cheering at the tannoy announcement was soon shouted down by the majority of the crowd. No-one could have been aware of the nature or the extent of what was happening, it only became apparent after the game.
    avatar
    rayebbram1

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 22
    Registration date : 2014-12-02
    Points : 22
    Age : 66
    Location : Burton

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by rayebbram1 on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 8:33 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:My thoughts on this terrible tragedy will not be popular, the same way as the truth has been treated but the whole thing was and has been manipulated from day one.

    Unlawful killing - Yes it was

    Police actions to blame - How? by closing the gates when the stadium was full?

    Stadium at fault - How? by agreeing that the gates should be shut for safety reasons? For being built in the first place?

    Ambulance service at fault - How? by being delayed by the crowds who were fighting to get out?

    Fans totally exonerated - How? Does that include the drunks that caused the problem, the ones with no tickets who were scaling the outside fence in order to gain free entry and causing others to be crushed which in turn lead to the outside gates to be opened to avoid a possible tragedy in that area and allowed thousands of non- payers to storm into the ground and cause the crushing in the first place?

    And the only paper that dare print the truth? Totally castigated, because for once it did print the truth.

    The innocents that died that day has left others behind that are scarred forever and yes, the Police, Ambulance and the Stadium did have a role to play in this terrible occurrence, but the hierarchy who made the decision to have fences erected at all football grounds were the biggest culprits, have they along with the others who got in for free after the kick off taken their share of the blame? Of course not, they hide behind the easy targets and blame others.

    Alongside those 96 victims who died that day a 97th died, it was called THE TRUTH.

    Best post of the year
    avatar
    MadAmster

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 13542
    Registration date : 2009-02-20
    Points : 15126
    Age : 63
    Location : Where else but Amster Dam

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 9:02 pm

    There is always a place to find the truth and it is usually found somewhere towards the middle.

    All those mentioned as being to blame at the latest inquest have their share of the blame. The authorities tried to cover up their shortcomings. Police lied.Police changed reports to make them more favourable.

    IMO there were far too many people in the Leppings for safety. Blame those without tickets who were let in by the police and stadium authorities.

    Go back in time to 1985. Heysel. The entire end where the tragedy took place was supposed to be empty. That was because the concrete on the terracing was old, decrepit and breaking up. It was deemed unsafe. Again, loads of folk, both Italian and English, without tickets. Between them, the police, UEFA and the stadium authorities decided to open that dangerous terracing FREE OF CHARGE and it was soon overflowing. I was sat up in the stands about on the half way line. I saw people breaking lumps of concrete from the terracing and throwing it at the English/'Pool fans down the side. The lumps were, naturally, thrown back. I saw two 'Pool fans carried out on stretchers from behind the goal, they had been stabbed. Then I saw a pistol, later it turned out to be a starting pistol. This was the point where the English/'Pool fans climbed over the fencing and attacked the Italians, who ran, forcing the rest of the fans in that end to move too....... straight into a brick wall. Again, those from both sides without tickets were responsible, aided and abetted by dumb decisions that never should have been made. Following previous incidents abroad the English clubs were banned from European competition. Juventus should also have been punished as their fans were equally to blame.

    There you have the common ground between the two disasters. Folk without tickets (and there always are) and the authorities making mind blowingly wrong decisions.



    Oh David Nugent, Oh David Nugent, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston at the side of the road in a Volkswagen beetle............
    avatar
    Stockport Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1971
    First ever game : Newcastle (h) Easter 1983 I think
    Number of posts : 5205
    Registration date : 2010-03-22
    Points : 5753
    Age : 51
    Location : That's a toughie.......

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Stockport Ram on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 7:15 am

    MadAmster wrote:There is always a place to find the truth and it is usually found somewhere towards the middle.

    All those mentioned as being to blame at the latest inquest have their share of the blame. The authorities tried to cover up their shortcomings. Police lied.Police changed reports to make them more favourable.

    IMO there were far too many people in the Leppings for safety. Blame those without tickets who were let in by the police and stadium authorities.

    Go back in time to 1985. Heysel. The entire end where the tragedy took place was supposed to be empty. That was because the concrete on the terracing was old, decrepit and breaking up. It was deemed unsafe. Again, loads of folk, both Italian and English, without tickets. Between them, the police, UEFA and the stadium authorities decided to open that dangerous terracing FREE OF CHARGE and it was soon overflowing. I was sat up in the stands about on the half way line. I saw people breaking lumps of concrete from the terracing and throwing it at the English/'Pool fans down the side. The lumps were, naturally, thrown back. I saw two 'Pool fans carried out on stretchers from behind the goal, they had been stabbed. Then I saw a pistol, later it turned out to be a starting pistol. This was the point where the English/'Pool fans climbed over the fencing and attacked the Italians, who ran, forcing the rest of the fans in that end to move too....... straight into a brick wall. Again, those from both sides without tickets were responsible, aided and abetted by dumb decisions that never should have been made. Following previous incidents abroad the English clubs were banned from European competition. Juventus should also have been punished as their fans were equally to blame.

    There you have the common ground between the two disasters. Folk without tickets (and there always are) and the authorities making mind blowingly wrong decisions.

    New best post of the year.
    avatar
    Angus

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 2155
    Registration date : 2012-07-17
    Points : 2258

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:44 am

    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.

    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink

    I wouldn't set too much stall on the independant jurors aspect the original report which set this fresh inquest in motion was anything but independent and it would have taken jurors with rare courage not to give the desired verdict.

    That the Sun lied was accepted very soon after the event, Police lost control on the day and made bad decisions with tragic consequenses everybody knew that 25 years ago, yes more dirt was dug out but not sure what the real point is on this carrying on over and over. It will bring nobody back.

    SYP, Sheffield City Council and Sheff Wed's public liability insurers settled the civil claims a long time ago, so it can't be compensation that drives this. The injured that claimed and certain close relatives of the dead were all compensated 20 years ago.

    A lot of those that witnessed it but weren't injured lost their claims for post traumatic stress in the House of Lords. So if the end is criminal trials then the obvious mob mentality of fans outside will be examined in a different light, so it may be that it ends now and many people will be relieved about that.
    avatar
    Boris

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Ipswich 2 Rams 6 1976
    Number of posts : 6707
    Registration date : 2009-02-23
    Points : 7731
    Age : 51
    Location : Shropshire

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:50 am

    derbygee wrote:I gave evidence to the original West Midlands investigation. On the day Derby were playing Utd at Old Trafford I was on Morning shift in Rotherham BOC plant till 1230. By the time I got home to pick up the Mrs and Kids it was about 1 o'clock. Our route to Manchester mirrored the route the Liverpool fans took over Woodhead. We got onto the Stocksbridge bypass about 1.30. At the roundabout starting the bypass the police had stopped Liverpools buses and cars and were holding them out of town. My Mrs said they'll never get to the ground in time. We drove past stationary traffic with flags and banners for the next 45 minutes. Thousands of Liverpool fans arrived late because the police stopped them out of town as a deliberate tactic tho keep them out of the pub. . It wasn't hoards of drunken scousers as the propaganda of the day would have you believe, It was IMHO a deliberately  manufactured traffic jam by the police designed deliberately to keep them out of the town and the pubs. Compound that by the lousy design of the Leppings Lane end in which only a couple of weeks earlier I had to force my way out with my Mrs and kids and a mate I feared for as he had emphysema and almost collapsed. We made it back out of the tunnel and round into a side pen. Personally I'd like to see tat shit tip of a ground bulldozed and the ignorant stewards that man it jobless for life.

    We all know how the scum in Old Trafford behaved but my abiding memory of that day is driving past a 20 mile line of cars and buses with scarves and banners flying on the way to Manchester and the fasces of the people in the cars we passed on the way home, only one care, an orange marina had a limp scarf hanging from the window.

    The other key factor in the overcrowding that was clear during the inquest was the lack of turnstiles open in the Leppings Lane end. Similar problems happened in previous FA Cup semi finals at Hillsborough. There was overcrowding and some people got crushed in the semi between Spurs and Wolves before this. It could have been us Rams fans looking forward to cheering on our team on that fateful day. Good to see that Kelvin Mackenzie from the Sun has at least the decency to come out and apologise about the lies that awful newspaper came out with, now time for Bernard Ingham to do the same.....

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/kelvin-mackenzie-reacts-hillsborough-verdict-7839834
    avatar
    Boris

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Ipswich 2 Rams 6 1976
    Number of posts : 6707
    Registration date : 2009-02-23
    Points : 7731
    Age : 51
    Location : Shropshire

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:59 am

    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.

    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink

    I wouldn't set too much stall on the independant jurors aspect the original report which set this fresh inquest in motion was anything but independent and it would have taken jurors with rare courage not to give the desired verdict.

    That the Sun lied was accepted very soon after the event, Police lost control on the day and made bad decisions with tragic consequenses everybody knew that 25 years ago, yes more dirt was dug out but not sure what the real point is on this carrying on over and over. It will bring nobody back.

    SYP, Sheffield City Council and Sheff Wed's public liability insurers settled the civil claims a long time ago, so it can't be compensation that drives this. The injured that claimed and certain close relatives of the dead were all compensated 20 years ago.

    A lot of those that witnessed it but weren't injured lost their claims for post traumatic stress in the House of Lords. So if the end is criminal trials then the obvious mob mentality of fans outside will be examined in a different light, so it may be that it ends now and many people will be relieved about that.

    You ask what the point of it all is, that sums you up Angus. So much of the time you just don't get it. You just can't get passed your irrational, xenophobic hatred of anything Scouse can you? If that had been your father, son, daughter or brother you would have got the point. Justice is the point. You must have found this all very difficult Angus....
    avatar
    Boris

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    First ever game : Ipswich 2 Rams 6 1976
    Number of posts : 6707
    Registration date : 2009-02-23
    Points : 7731
    Age : 51
    Location : Shropshire

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:26 am

    MadAmster wrote:There is always a place to find the truth and it is usually found somewhere towards the middle.

    All those mentioned as being to blame at the latest inquest have their share of the blame. The authorities tried to cover up their shortcomings. Police lied.Police changed reports to make them more favourable.

    IMO there were far too many people in the Leppings for safety. Blame those without tickets who were let in by the police and stadium authorities.

    Go back in time to 1985. Heysel. The entire end where the tragedy took place was supposed to be empty. That was because the concrete on the terracing was old, decrepit and breaking up. It was deemed unsafe. Again, loads of folk, both Italian and English, without tickets. Between them, the police, UEFA and the stadium authorities decided to open that dangerous terracing FREE OF CHARGE and it was soon overflowing. I was sat up in the stands about on the half way line. I saw people breaking lumps of concrete from the terracing and throwing it at the English/'Pool fans down the side. The lumps were, naturally, thrown back. I saw two 'Pool fans carried out on stretchers from behind the goal, they had been stabbed. Then I saw a pistol, later it turned out to be a starting pistol. This was the point where the English/'Pool fans climbed over the fencing and attacked the Italians, who ran, forcing the rest of the fans in that end to move too....... straight into a brick wall. Again, those from both sides without tickets were responsible, aided and abetted by dumb decisions that never should have been made. Following previous incidents abroad the English clubs were banned from European competition. Juventus should also have been punished as their fans were equally to blame.

    There you have the common ground between the two disasters. Folk without tickets (and there always are) and the authorities making mind blowingly wrong decisions.

    How do you know that 'fans without tickets' was a factor at Hillsborough Mad? Police stopping Liverpool fans from getting to the ground on time and then there not being enough turnstiles open at that end caused the initial overcrowding outside, that is clear. Does it state in the report or elsewhere that lots of fans were let in without tickets?
    avatar
    Angus

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 2155
    Registration date : 2012-07-17
    Points : 2258

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:31 am

    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.

    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink

    I wouldn't set too much stall on the independant jurors aspect the original report which set this fresh inquest in motion was anything but independent and it would have taken jurors with rare courage not to give the desired verdict.

    That the Sun lied was accepted very soon after the event, Police lost control on the day and made bad decisions with tragic consequenses everybody knew that 25 years ago, yes more dirt was dug out but not sure what the real point is on this carrying on over and over. It will bring nobody back.

    SYP, Sheffield City Council and Sheff Wed's public liability insurers settled the civil claims a long time ago, so it can't be compensation that drives this. The injured that claimed and certain close relatives of the dead were all compensated 20 years ago.

    A lot of those that witnessed it but weren't injured lost their claims for post traumatic stress in the House of Lords. So if the end is criminal trials then the obvious mob mentality of fans outside will be examined in a different light, so it may be that it ends now and many people will be relieved about that.

    You ask what the point of it all is, that sums you up Angus. So much of the time you just don't get it. You just can't get passed your irrational, xenophobic hatred of anything Scouse can you? If that had been your father, son, daughter or brother you would have got the point. Justice is the point. You must have found this all very difficult Angus....

    People have died they can't be brought back there is no justice, I don't like scouse that isn't unusual but I don't get it because more was done as a result of this disaster than any before, in many ways it was taken too far, abolishing standing at football in particular.

    SWP, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield Council admitted responsibility years ago compensation was paid, no I don't get it and I certainly don't want to see ambulance and police in the dock who made honest mistakes faced with unimaginable trauma in front of them, on the back of a witchunt with political undertones as well.

    Police Cover up no surprise that is what they do, wrong of course but on the other side of it when they break or bend the rules and it convicts the odious Phillpott nobody complains, so you have to be very careful how far in the Public interest this is taken because if the Police were always whiter than white Philpott may still be walking the streets of Derby for example.
    avatar
    Angus

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 2155
    Registration date : 2012-07-17
    Points : 2258

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:48 am

    Boris wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:There is always a place to find the truth and it is usually found somewhere towards the middle.

    All those mentioned as being to blame at the latest inquest have their share of the blame. The authorities tried to cover up their shortcomings. Police lied.Police changed reports to make them more favourable.

    IMO there were far too many people in the Leppings for safety. Blame those without tickets who were let in by the police and stadium authorities.

    Go back in time to 1985. Heysel. The entire end where the tragedy took place was supposed to be empty. That was because the concrete on the terracing was old, decrepit and breaking up. It was deemed unsafe. Again, loads of folk, both Italian and English, without tickets. Between them, the police, UEFA and the stadium authorities decided to open that dangerous terracing FREE OF CHARGE and it was soon overflowing. I was sat up in the stands about on the half way line. I saw people breaking lumps of concrete from the terracing and throwing it at the English/'Pool fans down the side. The lumps were, naturally, thrown back. I saw two 'Pool fans carried out on stretchers from behind the goal, they had been stabbed. Then I saw a pistol, later it turned out to be a starting pistol. This was the point where the English/'Pool fans climbed over the fencing and attacked the Italians, who ran, forcing the rest of the fans in that end to move too....... straight into a brick wall. Again, those from both sides without tickets were responsible, aided and abetted by dumb decisions that never should have been made. Following previous incidents abroad the English clubs were banned from European competition. Juventus should also have been punished as their fans were equally to blame.

    There you have the common ground between the two disasters. Folk without tickets (and there always are) and the authorities making mind blowingly wrong decisions.

    How do you know that 'fans without tickets' was a factor at Hillsborough Mad? Police stopping Liverpool fans from getting to the ground on time and then there not being enough turnstiles open at that end caused the initial overcrowding outside, that is clear. Does it state in the report or elsewhere that lots of fans were let in without tickets?

    It will never be known how many people were outside without tickets because the mob mentality outside gave the police the decision, do we open the gates for quick access. Of course they did and the events unfolded after that, if they hadn't though what would have been the result of the carnage outside.

    From the evidence probably there were not huge numbers without tickets they were on general sale the day before and the capacity on Leppings Lane was never reached just too many people went for the central pen. Do I doubt though a significant number would have wanted to pressure the authorities into letting them in on a free for all basis, not at all that was the mentality of the time.
    avatar
    rayebbram1

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    First ever game : First Game
    Number of posts : 22
    Registration date : 2014-12-02
    Points : 22
    Age : 66
    Location : Burton

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by rayebbram1 on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:51 am

    I accept that the jury exonerated the Liverpool fans, but my thoughts are why did 2,000 Liverpool fans go to the match without tickets?

    Surely, that is what caused the confusion and because of the surge to get into the ground by the ticketless fans the Police had to make the dreadfull decision of either fans being crushed outside the gate or inside the ground. A lose/lose situation.

    The 'cover up' can often be more serious than the actual crime.

    Apparentely, the Leppings Lane could only hold approx. 800 fans (with tickets) including the innocent 96, but when the disaster happened there were approx 1,700 fans in the stand, therefore 900 Liverpool fans were in the wrong place. Again, why would you go to an all ticket game without a ticket.

    I know that the inquest went into great detail, but I wonder how many of the 2,000 ticketless fans did they interview, I suspect 0.

    I have personally witnessed maurading Liverpool fans in the 80's and there was no way anyone could have stopped them, this was not an isolated incident. i.e Heysel

    As a nation we seem to always want to rewrite history and in my opinion this is just another example.
    avatar
    MadAmster

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 13542
    Registration date : 2009-02-20
    Points : 15126
    Age : 63
    Location : Where else but Amster Dam

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:55 am

    Boris wrote:

    How do you know that 'fans without tickets' was a factor at Hillsborough Mad? Police stopping Liverpool fans from getting to the ground on time and then there not being enough turnstiles open at that end caused the initial overcrowding outside, that is clear. Does it state in the report or elsewhere that lots of fans were let in without tickets?

    I am one of those annoying folk with a brain who sees and hears things and comes to logical conclusions. I also use past personal experience.

    There were already too many in the Leppings. The video from inside the ground shows that. The usual number of tickets were available so overcrowding wasn't down to too many tickets being available. There were still thousands, if the cameras outside weren't lying, wanting to get in to the Leppings. Some of them will have been last minute Johnnies due to the police tactics. Others won't have had a ticket. That is nothing strange. I have never been to an all ticket game where there was nobody outside looking for a spare ticket. the more important the game, the more folk there will be wanting tickets.

    1976 semi. I witnessed first hand hundreds of Rams and Reds continually asking id anybody had a spare ticket. I also saw two touts get rolled for their tickets by mixed group of Rams and Reds.

    Heysel. Everybody behind the goal where the tragedy unfolded, I would guess at around 5K, had all arrived at the game without a ticket.

    That there were loads of ticketless fans there is one of the recurrent themes in reports of what happened that day. I have never seen that theme challenged by anybody.

    As you, so rightly, imply, I don't know for a cast iron fact, as I didn't personally interview everybody outside the ground. However, ticketlessness is one part of the story that has never been called into question, until now, by you.

    If there weren't a multitude of ticketless fans, of both persuasions, there, that would be a first and a shock.

    I hope that explains things Bozza.



    Oh David Nugent, Oh David Nugent, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston at the side of the road in a Volkswagen beetle............

    Sponsored content

    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat 19 Aug 2017, 10:22 am