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    Hillsborough inquest

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    MadAmster

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:02 am

    I think that what you don't get, Angus, is that the 96, LFC, LFC fans and the entire City of Liverpool were pilloried by the police, the Government, the Press, ably led by the rag known as the Sun.

    That was a huge injustice. THAT is a huge part of what JFT96 was about. Another part was to apportion blame to those who contributed to the tragedy. That includes all those who travelled without a ticket as well as all those now in the picture following the unlawful killing verdict.

    It was NEVER about money, compensation. That appears to be what you think it was about. You are so very wrong.




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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:10 am

    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.


    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink

    I wouldn't set too much stall on the independant jurors aspect the original report which set this fresh inquest in motion was anything but independent and it would have taken jurors with rare courage not to give the desired verdict.

    That the Sun lied was accepted very soon after the event, Police lost control on the day and made bad decisions with tragic consequenses everybody knew that 25 years ago, yes more dirt was dug out but not sure what the real point is on this carrying on over and over. It will bring nobody back.

    SYP, Sheffield City Council and Sheff Wed's public liability insurers settled the civil claims a long time ago, so it can't be compensation that drives this. The injured that claimed and certain close relatives of the dead were all compensated 20 years ago.

    A lot of those that witnessed it but weren't injured lost their claims for post traumatic stress in the House of Lords. So if the end is criminal trials then the obvious mob mentality of fans outside will be examined in a different light, so it may be that it ends now and many people will be relieved about that.

    You ask what the point of it all is, that sums you up Angus. So much of the time you just don't get it. You just can't get passed your irrational, xenophobic hatred of anything Scouse can you? If that had been your father, son, daughter or brother you would have got the point. Justice is the point. You must have found this all very difficult Angus....

    People have died they can't be brought back there is no justice, I don't like scouse that isn't unusual but I don't get it because more was done as a result of this disaster than any before, in many ways it was taken too far, abolishing standing at football in particular.

    SWP, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield Council admitted responsibility years ago compensation was paid, no I don't get it and I certainly don't want to see ambulance and police in the dock who made honest mistakes faced with unimaginable trauma in front of them, on the back of a witchunt with political undertones as well.

    Police Cover up no surprise that is what they do, wrong of course but on the other side of it when they break or bend the rules and it convicts the odious Phillpott nobody complains, so you have to be very careful how far in the Public interest this is taken because if the Police were always whiter than white Philpott may still be walking the streets of Derby for example.

    Are you seriously defending the conduct of the police over Hillsborough Angus..really? A 'witch hunt' you say. The same police that leaked a false press release stating that Liverpool fans urinated on dead bodies, stole from the dead...the same police that falsified 200 witness statements....the same police that even the police today are now condemning as liars and letting the 96 and their families down. The same police that lied and tried to cover their own failings and incompetence up and push the blame on the fans? You really are priceless Angus...absolutely priceless. You regularly come out with some absolute garbage but this takes the biscuit. Frustrated
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    MadAmster

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:16 am

    Well put Bozza.



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    Angus

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:50 am

    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.


    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink

    I wouldn't set too much stall on the independant jurors aspect the original report which set this fresh inquest in motion was anything but independent and it would have taken jurors with rare courage not to give the desired verdict.

    That the Sun lied was accepted very soon after the event, Police lost control on the day and made bad decisions with tragic consequenses everybody knew that 25 years ago, yes more dirt was dug out but not sure what the real point is on this carrying on over and over. It will bring nobody back.

    SYP, Sheffield City Council and Sheff Wed's public liability insurers settled the civil claims a long time ago, so it can't be compensation that drives this. The injured that claimed and certain close relatives of the dead were all compensated 20 years ago.

    A lot of those that witnessed it but weren't injured lost their claims for post traumatic stress in the House of Lords. So if the end is criminal trials then the obvious mob mentality of fans outside will be examined in a different light, so it may be that it ends now and many people will be relieved about that.

    You ask what the point of it all is, that sums you up Angus. So much of the time you just don't get it. You just can't get passed your irrational, xenophobic hatred of anything Scouse can you? If that had been your father, son, daughter or brother you would have got the point. Justice is the point. You must have found this all very difficult Angus....

    People have died they can't be brought back there is no justice, I don't like scouse that isn't unusual but I don't get it because more was done as a result of this disaster than any before, in many ways it was taken too far, abolishing standing at football in particular.

    SWP, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield Council admitted responsibility years ago compensation was paid, no I don't get it and I certainly don't want to see ambulance and police in the dock who made honest mistakes faced with unimaginable trauma in front of them, on the back of a witchunt with political undertones as well.

    Police Cover up no surprise that is what they do, wrong of course but on the other side of it when they break or bend the rules and it convicts the odious Phillpott nobody complains, so you have to be very careful how far in the Public interest this is taken because if the Police were always whiter than white Philpott may still be walking the streets of Derby for example.

    Are you seriously defending the conduct of the police over Hillsborough Angus..really? A 'witch hunt' you say. The same police that leaked a false press release stating that Liverpool fans urinated on dead bodies, stole from the dead...the same police that falsified 200 witness statements....the same police that even the police today are now condemning as liars and letting the 96 and their families down. The same police that lied and tried to cover their own failings and incompetence up and push the blame on the fans? You really are priceless Angus...absolutely priceless. You regularly come out with some absolute garbage but this takes the biscuit.  Frustrated

    When did I defend the Police at no point have I done that, not going to get into insults you don't like that. It was known and accepted since 1990 the police were at fault in this disaster and could have prevented it with proper management. Read properly though before you go off on one.
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    rob

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by rob on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:53 am

    it cant be news this - it is not on the front page of the sun or the times early edition
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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:25 am

    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.


    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink

    I wouldn't set too much stall on the independant jurors aspect the original report which set this fresh inquest in motion was anything but independent and it would have taken jurors with rare courage not to give the desired verdict.

    That the Sun lied was accepted very soon after the event, Police lost control on the day and made bad decisions with tragic consequenses everybody knew that 25 years ago, yes more dirt was dug out but not sure what the real point is on this carrying on over and over. It will bring nobody back.

    SYP, Sheffield City Council and Sheff Wed's public liability insurers settled the civil claims a long time ago, so it can't be compensation that drives this. The injured that claimed and certain close relatives of the dead were all compensated 20 years ago.

    A lot of those that witnessed it but weren't injured lost their claims for post traumatic stress in the House of Lords. So if the end is criminal trials then the obvious mob mentality of fans outside will be examined in a different light, so it may be that it ends now and many people will be relieved about that.

    You ask what the point of it all is, that sums you up Angus. So much of the time you just don't get it. You just can't get passed your irrational, xenophobic hatred of anything Scouse can you? If that had been your father, son, daughter or brother you would have got the point. Justice is the point. You must have found this all very difficult Angus....

    People have died they can't be brought back there is no justice, I don't like scouse that isn't unusual but I don't get it because more was done as a result of this disaster than any before, in many ways it was taken too far, abolishing standing at football in particular.

    SWP, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield Council admitted responsibility years ago compensation was paid, no I don't get it and I certainly don't want to see ambulance and police in the dock who made honest mistakes faced with unimaginable trauma in front of them, on the back of a witchunt with political undertones as well.

    Police Cover up no surprise that is what they do, wrong of course but on the other side of it when they break or bend the rules and it convicts the odious Phillpott nobody complains, so you have to be very careful how far in the Public interest this is taken because if the Police were always whiter than white Philpott may still be walking the streets of Derby for example.

    Are you seriously defending the conduct of the police over Hillsborough Angus..really? A 'witch hunt' you say. The same police that leaked a false press release stating that Liverpool fans urinated on dead bodies, stole from the dead...the same police that falsified 200 witness statements....the same police that even the police today are now condemning as liars and letting the 96 and their families down. The same police that lied and tried to cover their own failings and incompetence up and push the blame on the fans? You really are priceless Angus...absolutely priceless. You regularly come out with some absolute garbage but this takes the biscuit.  Frustrated

    When did I defend the Police at no point have I done that, not going to get into insults you don't like that. It was known and accepted since 1990 the police were at fault in this disaster and could have prevented it with proper management. Read properly though before you go off on one.

    You need to read through your own dross again Angus...it's there in black and white.....
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    Angus

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 12:17 pm

    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:Justice.


    At last.

    Agreed Stockers...but for some, the truth will never get in the way of the prejudice and they will always prefer to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the fact that a jury have sat through 2 years of evidence, over 600 witnesses, not just families and fans, but stewards who were there on the day, St Johns Ambulance workers, honest police officers whose statements were tampered with to cover things up. Finally the South Yorkshire police have unequivocally accepted the findings and agreed that they let fans down on the day, the policeman in charge has on oath accepted that he lied. Fantastic day for those families celebration Party Singers Toast

    Totally missed my point Boris. Those you mentioned were guilty of cover ups and lies but what gets to me is who caused the problem in the first place to set those moments into motion? That fact has been ignored.

    The problem was created at the outside gates by people turning up late or having no ticket forcing their way into the ground with mob mentality.

    To mention Heysel is not great but that was another occasion of the mob mentality that some of the Liverpool fans had at that time that showed it's ugly head at Hillsborough.


    Oh dear. Your account of drunken yobs, mob mentality is the account the police gave to the Sun newspaper to report which they did. It was part of the cover up that has been revealed finally through the inquest. The police now accept that they lied. The Sun accept that they made it up. But you and others still prefer to believe the made up stories than what independent jurors have decided is the truth after seeing all the CCTV evidence, tampered statements and witness after witness. I am chuffed to bits for the families and hope now that those responsible will face justice in the courts. The 2 separate independent reviews looking in to the failures on the day of the police, ambulance service, Sheff Wed FC, health and safety executives and then the cover up by the police afterwards, the lies that you still strangely want to believe Sawley, should be completed in the next 6 months. They should make fascinating reading. Anyway, my stand on this has proven correct and I will raise a toast to the 96 and their families tonight Drink

    I wouldn't set too much stall on the independant jurors aspect the original report which set this fresh inquest in motion was anything but independent and it would have taken jurors with rare courage not to give the desired verdict.

    That the Sun lied was accepted very soon after the event, Police lost control on the day and made bad decisions with tragic consequenses everybody knew that 25 years ago, yes more dirt was dug out but not sure what the real point is on this carrying on over and over. It will bring nobody back.

    SYP, Sheffield City Council and Sheff Wed's public liability insurers settled the civil claims a long time ago, so it can't be compensation that drives this. The injured that claimed and certain close relatives of the dead were all compensated 20 years ago.

    A lot of those that witnessed it but weren't injured lost their claims for post traumatic stress in the House of Lords. So if the end is criminal trials then the obvious mob mentality of fans outside will be examined in a different light, so it may be that it ends now and many people will be relieved about that.

    You ask what the point of it all is, that sums you up Angus. So much of the time you just don't get it. You just can't get passed your irrational, xenophobic hatred of anything Scouse can you? If that had been your father, son, daughter or brother you would have got the point. Justice is the point. You must have found this all very difficult Angus....

    People have died they can't be brought back there is no justice, I don't like scouse that isn't unusual but I don't get it because more was done as a result of this disaster than any before, in many ways it was taken too far, abolishing standing at football in particular.

    SWP, Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield Council admitted responsibility years ago compensation was paid, no I don't get it and I certainly don't want to see ambulance and police in the dock who made honest mistakes faced with unimaginable trauma in front of them, on the back of a witchunt with political undertones as well.

    Police Cover up no surprise that is what they do, wrong of course but on the other side of it when they break or bend the rules and it convicts the odious Phillpott nobody complains, so you have to be very careful how far in the Public interest this is taken because if the Police were always whiter than white Philpott may still be walking the streets of Derby for example.

    Are you seriously defending the conduct of the police over Hillsborough Angus..really? A 'witch hunt' you say. The same police that leaked a false press release stating that Liverpool fans urinated on dead bodies, stole from the dead...the same police that falsified 200 witness statements....the same police that even the police today are now condemning as liars and letting the 96 and their families down. The same police that lied and tried to cover their own failings and incompetence up and push the blame on the fans? You really are priceless Angus...absolutely priceless. You regularly come out with some absolute garbage but this takes the biscuit.  Frustrated

    When did I defend the Police at no point have I done that, not going to get into insults you don't like that. It was known and accepted since 1990 the police were at fault in this disaster and could have prevented it with proper management. Read properly though before you go off on one.

    You need to read through your own dross again Angus...it's there in black and white.....

    In context certainly not dross, I suspect you are aware of my point but if that is not so I will spell it out. As the top men in this case were tried years ago and the result of that means it will be very difficult to bring them back to court, to go after more junior people faced with what they did like ambulance drivers who made bad choices I think would be very wrong.
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    Barnstaple Ram

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Barnstaple Ram on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 12:41 pm

    As I have mentioned before a good friend of my wifes and mine was in the Leppings Lane end that afternoon. As a side note his dad and sister were in the adjoining stand watching the events occur

    He has had to give evidence during this trial as the man he was stood next too sadly lost his life. Our friend managed to survive because just as the crush was happening he managed to position himself so the crush barrier crushed hi leg not his chest so he has been left with a massive scar on his thigh but didn't have the life sucked out of him like others. He has always said he wished he could have done more to help the other man. After he gave evidence the family of the man got chance to speak to him and thank him for all he had done.

    He very rarely talks about the day and did actually break down in the witness box on this occaision.

    One of the main reasosn the families wanted the inquest is so that the cause of death can be changed from "accidental death" as all of it could have been prevented with the correct actions being taken by many.

    I am not in any way shape or form condoning fans being drunk or ticketless but just picking up on a point from Ammy (I think) about not interviewing anyone outside the ground. I have spoken to someone who was there and he still feels the pain of the day today.He , along with thousands of others that were their that day (and thousands more family members who weren't) just wanted the real reasons to be recordedso thta they can finally put some closure on the sad day.

    Finally its time to say RIP to the 96
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    rob

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by rob on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 12:53 pm

    Well said Barney - although I think the people who did the cover up should face criminal prosecution for trying to pervert the course of justice
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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 1:06 pm

    rob wrote:Well said Barney - although I think the people who did the cover up should face criminal prosecution for trying to pervert the course of justice

    The families have justice, that chapter is finished. The final chapter is about accountability. As you say Rob, those in charge, the ones that took the decisions to lie and cover things up now need to answer for their actions in the courts.
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    bramhallram

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by bramhallram on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 1:42 pm

    I haven't been following the story as closely as some of you, so maybe someone could enlighten me about one matter.

    Was there an alternative to opening the Exit gate at the Leppings Lane end of the ground ? It was this action that enabled fans to rush into the central tunnel with tragic consequences. Or had the police lost control so completely that people were going to get crushed to death that day, either inside or outside the ground ?

    The police decision to open that gate was presumably taken to ease crowd pressure at the turnstiles and prevent possible deaths outside the ground. This was achieved but at a terrible cost for fans already in that central pen.

    .
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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 2:06 pm

    bramhallram wrote:I haven't been following the story as closely as some of you, so maybe someone could enlighten me about one matter.

    Was there an alternative to opening the Exit gate at the Leppings Lane end of the ground ? It was this action that enabled fans to rush into the central tunnel with tragic consequences. Or had the police lost control so completely that people were going to get crushed to death that day, either inside or outside the ground ?

    The police decision to open that gate was presumably taken to ease crowd pressure at the turnstiles and prevent possible deaths outside the ground. This was achieved but at a terrible cost for fans already in that central pen.

    .

    This summary gives a pretty good account of the key errors BR...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35462767
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    Angus

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 2:14 pm

    bramhallram wrote:I haven't been following the story as closely as some of you, so maybe someone could enlighten me about one matter.

    Was there an alternative to opening the Exit gate at the Leppings Lane end of the ground ? It was this action that enabled fans to rush into the central tunnel with tragic consequences. Or had the police lost control so completely that people were going to get crushed to death that day, either inside or outside the ground ?

    The police decision to open that gate was presumably taken to ease crowd pressure at the turnstiles and prevent possible deaths outside the ground. This was achieved but at a terrible cost for fans already in that central pen.

    .

    If they had sealed the tunnel and directed the fans to the side pen they would probably been ok opening the gates, they had lost control outside for certain. 31 who got killed were early arrivers squeezed to the front the rest around that tunnel area. After that getting the fencing gates open quicker would have saved lives, which didn't happen, all this though was dealt with in 1990 with the Taylor report and the blame given to the Police.
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    derbygee

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by derbygee on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 8:24 pm

    If anyone went to Hillsborough as an away terrace fan prior to the disaster when you went through the turnstiles you were into a large courtyard area. There was no real signage directing you where to go and no stewards apart from a couple on the entrance to the upper tier. What you did see was the tunnel opening with the pitch visible at the other end. A couple of weeks prior to this we played them, that was when I managed to get my family and mate out of the pen when I thought he was going to die in the crush. We managed to get back through the tunnel and a lad I knew shouted to me to follow him, he took us round the side of the stand into an half empty pen next to the one the Liverpool fans were crushed in. If you had never been to the ground before you would never have known you get round the ends of the stand. You were automatically drawn to that tunnel.

    I have only been back once since. We were in the upper tier. It is still dangerous, the stairs to the upper tier are lethal, the stewarding is still woefull the worst I ever seen in a ground. The signage has hardly changed. I do know that I will never set foot in that shithole again for any reason

    I stopped going to away games for several years after Hillsborough, even though we were at Old Trafford that day the trip back home scarred us all a little.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Stockport Ram on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:55 pm

    If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by LeedsRam on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 12:36 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by chicken on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 7:37 am

    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree. What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans. I must say that included myself for years.

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away. They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by rob on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 8:16 am

    the establishment always gangs together - as they will expect pay-back later on (see all the shite flying around politicians that never gets investigated properly)
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 10:13 am

    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by MadAmster on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 10:19 am

    Does any of what you have written explain why people who lied, falsified police reports etc should not face the consequences, Angus?



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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 10:28 am

    MadAmster wrote:Does any of what you have written explain why people who lied, falsified police reports etc should not face the consequences, Angus?

    Yes because there is a massive danger a fair trial would be impossible, also the CPS has the huge hurdle of the results of the previous trial of the top men involved, if they can't be tried then is it really fair to go after others lower down the chain.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 10:35 am

    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.


    Angus, the Liverpool fans have been cleared of contributing to the Hillsborough disaster, the police have accepted that, the Sun newspaper who printed the lies have accepted it so why do YOU keep bringing this garbage up? You just simply can't let the truth get in the way of your unfounded, ludicrous prejudice and hatred for people from Liverpool can you? As other posters have said, thank God it wasn't us Derby fans there on that fateful day, it could well have been, we were there in 1976. Your dismissive, casual attitude to people's deaths, deaths that could have been prevented, the idea we should just forget about it as it was a while ago is staggering. Those families have been suffering for 26 years. I would never have got over it if it had of been my son, father, brother. You would think differently if it had of been someone close to you. Shame on you Angus.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 11:14 am

    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.


    Angus, the Liverpool fans have been cleared of contributing to the Hillsborough disaster, the police have accepted that, the Sun newspaper who printed the lies have accepted it so why do YOU keep bringing this garbage up? You just simply can't let the truth get in the way of your unfounded, ludicrous prejudice and hatred for people from Liverpool can you? As other posters have said, thank God it wasn't us Derby fans there on that fateful day, it could well have been, we were there in 1976. Your dismissive, casual attitude to people's deaths, deaths that could have been prevented, the idea we should just forget about it as it was a while ago is staggering. Those families have been suffering for 26 years. I would never have got over it if it had of been my son, father, brother. You would think differently if it had of been someone close to you. Shame on you Angus.

    No you are misreading me probably deliberately, I had personal experience of what some Liverpool fans were like around that time, if you speak to most Forest fans who were there and where I live there are loads they all pretty much concur with what I say, as do Sheffield people who were in the area. No jury 27 years later will change minds.

    Those deaths could have been prevented but the culture of the time created that environment, unimaginable to youngsters today, that was why fences were up for example. What went wrong was sorted and blame apportioned in 1990, nothing will bring people back. I understand the unlawful killing verdict with the extra evidence dug up, uncovering exactly what the police are capable of to cover their backsides is good for justice in this country but to say that fans conduct outside didn't play any part is a step too far. Taylor had it right in 1990, they exaggerated the problems the authorities created and when you add the bad decisions from the match command it proved a lethal cocktail.

    Action was swiftly taken after this disaster so nothing similar could ever happen again, which wasn't the case with others.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 11:51 am

    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.


    Angus, the Liverpool fans have been cleared of contributing to the Hillsborough disaster, the police have accepted that, the Sun newspaper who printed the lies have accepted it so why do YOU keep bringing this garbage up? You just simply can't let the truth get in the way of your unfounded, ludicrous prejudice and hatred for people from Liverpool can you? As other posters have said, thank God it wasn't us Derby fans there on that fateful day, it could well have been, we were there in 1976. Your dismissive, casual attitude to people's deaths, deaths that could have been prevented, the idea we should just forget about it as it was a while ago is staggering. Those families have been suffering for 26 years. I would never have got over it if it had of been my son, father, brother. You would think differently if it had of been someone close to you. Shame on you Angus.

    No you are misreading me probably deliberately, I had personal experience of what some Liverpool fans were like around that time, if you speak to most Forest fans who were there and where I live there are loads they all pretty much concur with what I say, as do Sheffield people who were in the area. No jury 27 years later will change minds.

    Those deaths could have been prevented but the culture of the time created that environment, unimaginable to youngsters today, that was why fences were up for example. What went wrong was sorted and blame apportioned in 1990, nothing will bring people back. I understand the unlawful killing verdict with the extra evidence dug up, uncovering exactly what the police are capable of to cover their backsides is good for justice in this country but to say that fans conduct outside didn't play any part is a step too far. Taylor had it right in 1990, they exaggerated the problems the authorities created and when you add the bad decisions from the match command it proved a lethal cocktail.


    Action was swiftly taken after this disaster so nothing similar could ever happen again, which wasn't the case with others.

    You know what your blind denial reminds me of Angus, holocaust denial. Despite all the evidence, some simply decide not to believe it. You imply the jury at the inquest were some how not independent, you down play all the key aspects. Somehow it's alright for the powers that be to lie. That's ok, not a problem. It is just not worth having a debate with you Angus, it is like flogging a dead horse. I for one am delighted that the truth is finally out, the people that have seen 2 years of evidence have come to that conclusion and I trust them much more than I do your irrational prejudice. Now after justice, the families hopefully will get accountability and those responsible will be brought before the courts. Any reasonable, pragmatic and empathetic human being would want that. I actually, in a very small way feel sorry for you Angus.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 12:02 pm

    Boris, having watched this thread I feel that it is you who is deliberately misunderstanding what is being written.

    As you know Angus and I rarely agree........on anything, but he has put forward a very sensible argument, in no way condoning what has happened but rightly pointing out the danger of applying modern thinking to old problems. This jury has certainly come to the right verdict but Angus is right to point out that things were very different when this disaster happened, from both a fan and a police perspective.

    Because of the constant and consistant misbehaviour of fans over a decade or more it is inconceivable that some shred of blame should not be attributable to the fans, but this would be impossible to understand by anybody who did not experience the lawlessness that ruled the terraces at the time. This is the point that Angus has made from the start and the point you have chosen to ignore no matter which way round he has stated it.

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