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    Hillsborough inquest

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    MadAmster

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by MadAmster on Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:06 pm

    Angus wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:Does any of what you have written explain why people who lied, falsified police reports etc should not face the consequences, Angus?

    Yes because there is a massive danger a fair trial would be impossible, also the CPS has the huge hurdle of the results of the previous trial of the top men involved, if they can't be tried then is it really fair to go after others lower down the chain.

    I would be quite happy to see those who gave the order to lie, falsify and pervert brought before the courts. Ordinary coppers, ambulance drivers or whoever "merely" carried out those orders might be deserving of a little humanity with regard to their actions.

    As for the politicians and journalists involved in this, I'd throw the book................ NO, I'd throw the entire British Library at them.



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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:27 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Boris, having watched this thread I feel that it is you who is deliberately misunderstanding what is being written.

    As you know Angus and I rarely agree........on anything, but he has put forward a very sensible argument, in no way condoning what has happened but rightly pointing out the danger of applying modern thinking to old problems. This jury has certainly come to the right verdict but Angus is right to point out that things were very different when this disaster happened, from both a fan and a police perspective.

    Because of the constant and consistant misbehaviour of fans over a decade or more it is inconceivable that some shred of blame should not be attributable to the fans, but this would be impossible to understand by anybody who did not experience the lawlessness that ruled the terraces at the time. This is the point that Angus has made from the start and the point you have chosen to ignore no matter which way round he has stated it.

    You think Angus is putting forward a sensible argument Loughs? Really??? We will just have to Agree to disagree I know you and Angus share this immense dislike of Liverpool, hope it's not affecting your judgement too Loughs.
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    derbygee

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by derbygee on Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:36 pm

    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.

    It was obvious to me 2 weeks before Hillsborough disaster that the Leppings lane terraces were inherently dangerous even by the standards at the time.

    Just one more thing the Stewarding in Sheffield was on the poor end of unacceptable and still is now. They are surly, unhelpful and overbearing but that is true of Sheffield as a city. Liverpool gets pilloried for it's reputation but Sheffield really is a fishcaking horrible place!
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    Angus

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Angus on Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:55 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Boris, having watched this thread I feel that it is you who is deliberately misunderstanding what is being written.

    As you know Angus and I rarely agree........on anything, but he has put forward a very sensible argument, in no way condoning what has happened but rightly pointing out the danger of applying modern thinking to old problems. This jury has certainly come to the right verdict but Angus is right to point out that things were very different when this disaster happened, from both a fan and a police perspective.

    Because of the constant and consistant misbehaviour of fans over a decade or more it is inconceivable that some shred of blame should not be attributable to the fans, but this would be impossible to understand by anybody who did not experience the lawlessness that ruled the terraces at the time. This is the point that Angus has made from the start and the point you have chosen to ignore no matter which way round he has stated it.

    Thank you for that you sum up better than I could, he won't have a sensible debate, whether he went to matches at that time I don't know. To say that the mob outside had no bearing on the events that day is nonsense, yes certain measures could have been taken to avoid the bottleneck but a lot of people there wanted to force the police to let them in, they were climbing into the ground, Taylor had it right, nor did some Liverpool fans on the pitch heading for the Forest end, not many but enough for the Police to call for dogs, that hardly helped matters. I will add they were hardly saints in the final a few weeks later mass jibbing and big pitch invasions.

    What the Sun wrote was quickly proven false and most people including me knew that at the time there was always a lot of sympathy around for Liverpool fans over this, fences were ripped down all over the country within a week, action was taken huge grief throughout football fans for those who passed away, hostilities ceased for a long time even Liverpool Man Utd, even I sung that dirge anthem on the popside the next week.

    Hillsborough went beyond tribal rivalry and it stayed that way for a long time after 1989, a shame that changed as time moved on and I can't help but feel the quiet dignity the Bradford fire families showed might have been better in this case because make no mistake they were just as let down by the authorities, that should never have happened either.





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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:09 pm

    Angus wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:Boris, having watched this thread I feel that it is you who is deliberately misunderstanding what is being written.

    As you know Angus and I rarely agree........on anything, but he has put forward a very sensible argument, in no way condoning what has happened but rightly pointing out the danger of applying modern thinking to old problems. This jury has certainly come to the right verdict but Angus is right to point out that things were very different when this disaster happened, from both a fan and a police perspective.

    Because of the constant and consistant misbehaviour of fans over a decade or more it is inconceivable that some shred of blame should not be attributable to the fans, but this would be impossible to understand by anybody who did not experience the lawlessness that ruled the terraces at the time. This is the point that Angus has made from the start and the point you have chosen to ignore no matter which way round he has stated it.

    Thank you for that you sum up better than I could, he won't have a sensible debate, whether he went to matches at that time I don't know. To say that the mob outside had no bearing on the events that day is nonsense, yes certain measures could have been taken to avoid the bottleneck but a lot of people there wanted to force the police to let them in, they were climbing into the ground, Taylor had it right, nor did some Liverpool fans on the pitch heading for the Forest end, not many but enough for the Police to call for dogs, that hardly helped matters. I will add they were hardly saints in the final a few weeks later mass jibbing and big pitch invasions.

    What the Sun wrote was quickly proven false and most people including me knew that at the time there was always a lot of sympathy around for Liverpool fans over this, fences were ripped down all over the country within a week, action was taken huge grief throughout football fans for those who passed away, hostilities ceased for a long time even Liverpool Man Utd, even I sung that dirge anthem on the popside the next week.

    Hillsborough went beyond tribal rivalry and it stayed that way for a long time after 1989, a shame that changed as time moved on and I can't help but feel the quiet dignity the Bradford fire families showed might have been better in this case because make no mistake they were just as let down by the authorities, that should never have happened either.






    What is this sensible debate I won't have? I agree with the key findings of the inquest that the fans were not to blame, the police agree with the findings and have apologised, the Sun accepts the way they portrayed the fans was total fabrication. The findings of the inquest point to a number of failings, the police, the ambulance service, Sheff Wed, the state of and health and safety within the ground, but after reviewing all the evidence, the cctv, the statements from a whole range of witnesses, the jury came to the conclusion the fans were not to blame. I agree with those findings and I am happy to have a debate about any aspect. I think those responsible should have to answer before a court. What of that don't you agree with Loughs? What am I deliberately ignoring?
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    cmccram

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by cmccram on Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:18 pm

    I think the biggest thing for the families was to get the cause of death changed and remove the false impression that was given that it was Liverpool fans as a whole that were is any way responsible, it's all on the wording. Yes of course the fans played a role in the disaster as a whole but to tar all the fans with the same brush is the point of getting Justice for the 96.
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    rayebbram1

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by rayebbram1 on Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:34 pm

    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.


    Angus, the Liverpool fans have been cleared of contributing to the Hillsborough disaster, the police have accepted that, the Sun newspaper who printed the lies have accepted it so why do YOU keep bringing this garbage up? You just simply can't let the truth get in the way of your unfounded, ludicrous prejudice and hatred for people from Liverpool can you? As other posters have said, thank God it wasn't us Derby fans there on that fateful day, it could well have been, we were there in 1976. Your dismissive, casual attitude to people's deaths, deaths that could have been prevented, the idea we should just forget about it as it was a while ago is staggering. Those families have been suffering for 26 years. I would never have got over it if it had of been my son, father, brother. You would think differently if it had of been someone close to you. Shame on you Angus.

    No you are misreading me probably deliberately, I had personal experience of what some Liverpool fans were like around that time, if you speak to most Forest fans who were there and where I live there are loads they all pretty much concur with what I say, as do Sheffield people who were in the area. No jury 27 years later will change minds.

    Those deaths could have been prevented but the culture of the time created that environment, unimaginable to youngsters today, that was why fences were up for example. What went wrong was sorted and blame apportioned in 1990, nothing will bring people back. I understand the unlawful killing verdict with the extra evidence dug up, uncovering exactly what the police are capable of to cover their backsides is good for justice in this country but to say that fans conduct outside didn't play any part is a step too far. Taylor had it right in 1990, they exaggerated the problems the authorities created and when you add the bad decisions from the match command it proved a lethal cocktail.


    Action was swiftly taken after this disaster so nothing similar could ever happen again, which wasn't the case with others.

    You know what your blind denial reminds me of Angus, holocaust denial. Despite all the evidence, some simply decide not to believe it. You imply the jury at the inquest were some how not independent, you down play all the key aspects. Somehow it's alright for the powers that be to lie. That's ok, not a problem. It is just not worth having a debate with you Angus, it is like flogging a dead horse. I for one am delighted that the truth is finally out, the people that have seen 2 years of evidence have come to that conclusion and I trust them much more than I do your irrational prejudice. Now after justice, the families hopefully will get accountability and those responsible will be brought before the courts. Any reasonable, pragmatic and empathetic human being would want that. I actually, in a very small way feel sorry for you Angus.
    Interestingly that you mention the Holocaust because it emerged that Churchill & Eisenhower both knew about the atrocities but did nothing. Under 2016 logic they would now be liable and the Nazis would be exonerated.
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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:17 pm

    rayebbram1 wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.


    Angus, the Liverpool fans have been cleared of contributing to the Hillsborough disaster, the police have accepted that, the Sun newspaper who printed the lies have accepted it so why do YOU keep bringing this garbage up? You just simply can't let the truth get in the way of your unfounded, ludicrous prejudice and hatred for people from Liverpool can you? As other posters have said, thank God it wasn't us Derby fans there on that fateful day, it could well have been, we were there in 1976. Your dismissive, casual attitude to people's deaths, deaths that could have been prevented, the idea we should just forget about it as it was a while ago is staggering. Those families have been suffering for 26 years. I would never have got over it if it had of been my son, father, brother. You would think differently if it had of been someone close to you. Shame on you Angus.

    No you are misreading me probably deliberately, I had personal experience of what some Liverpool fans were like around that time, if you speak to most Forest fans who were there and where I live there are loads they all pretty much concur with what I say, as do Sheffield people who were in the area. No jury 27 years later will change minds.

    Those deaths could have been prevented but the culture of the time created that environment, unimaginable to youngsters today, that was why fences were up for example. What went wrong was sorted and blame apportioned in 1990, nothing will bring people back. I understand the unlawful killing verdict with the extra evidence dug up, uncovering exactly what the police are capable of to cover their backsides is good for justice in this country but to say that fans conduct outside didn't play any part is a step too far. Taylor had it right in 1990, they exaggerated the problems the authorities created and when you add the bad decisions from the match command it proved a lethal cocktail.


    Action was swiftly taken after this disaster so nothing similar could ever happen again, which wasn't the case with others.

    You know what your blind denial reminds me of Angus, holocaust denial. Despite all the evidence, some simply decide not to believe it. You imply the jury at the inquest were some how not independent, you down play all the key aspects. Somehow it's alright for the powers that be to lie. That's ok, not a problem. It is just not worth having a debate with you Angus, it is like flogging a dead horse. I for one am delighted that the truth is finally out, the people that have seen 2 years of evidence have come to that conclusion and I trust them much more than I do your irrational prejudice. Now after justice, the families hopefully will get accountability and those responsible will be brought before the courts. Any reasonable, pragmatic and empathetic human being would want that. I actually, in a very small way feel sorry for you Angus.
    Interestingly that you mention the Holocaust because it emerged that Churchill & Eisenhower both knew about the atrocities but did nothing. Under 2016 logic they would now be liable and the Nazis would be exonerated.

    You've lost me...who are Churchill and Eisenhower in your scenario? What's the 2016 logic??? Who are the Nazi's??
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    rayebbram1

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by rayebbram1 on Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:27 pm

    Boris wrote:
    rayebbram1 wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.


    Angus, the Liverpool fans have been cleared of contributing to the Hillsborough disaster, the police have accepted that, the Sun newspaper who printed the lies have accepted it so why do YOU keep bringing this garbage up? You just simply can't let the truth get in the way of your unfounded, ludicrous prejudice and hatred for people from Liverpool can you? As other posters have said, thank God it wasn't us Derby fans there on that fateful day, it could well have been, we were there in 1976. Your dismissive, casual attitude to people's deaths, deaths that could have been prevented, the idea we should just forget about it as it was a while ago is staggering. Those families have been suffering for 26 years. I would never have got over it if it had of been my son, father, brother. You would think differently if it had of been someone close to you. Shame on you Angus.

    No you are misreading me probably deliberately, I had personal experience of what some Liverpool fans were like around that time, if you speak to most Forest fans who were there and where I live there are loads they all pretty much concur with what I say, as do Sheffield people who were in the area. No jury 27 years later will change minds.

    Those deaths could have been prevented but the culture of the time created that environment, unimaginable to youngsters today, that was why fences were up for example. What went wrong was sorted and blame apportioned in 1990, nothing will bring people back. I understand the unlawful killing verdict with the extra evidence dug up, uncovering exactly what the police are capable of to cover their backsides is good for justice in this country but to say that fans conduct outside didn't play any part is a step too far. Taylor had it right in 1990, they exaggerated the problems the authorities created and when you add the bad decisions from the match command it proved a lethal cocktail.


    Action was swiftly taken after this disaster so nothing similar could ever happen again, which wasn't the case with others.

    You know what your blind denial reminds me of Angus, holocaust denial. Despite all the evidence, some simply decide not to believe it. You imply the jury at the inquest were some how not independent, you down play all the key aspects. Somehow it's alright for the powers that be to lie. That's ok, not a problem. It is just not worth having a debate with you Angus, it is like flogging a dead horse. I for one am delighted that the truth is finally out, the people that have seen 2 years of evidence have come to that conclusion and I trust them much more than I do your irrational prejudice. Now after justice, the families hopefully will get accountability and those responsible will be brought before the courts. Any reasonable, pragmatic and empathetic human being would want that. I actually, in a very small way feel sorry for you Angus.
    Interestingly that you mention the Holocaust because it emerged that Churchill & Eisenhower both knew about the atrocities but did nothing. Under 2016 logic they would now be liable and the Nazis would be exonerated.

    You've lost me...who are Churchill and Eisenhower in your scenario? What's the 2016 logic??? Who are the Nazi's??

    History lesson - Churchill was the UK prime minister during the 2nd world war and Eisenhower was the President of the USA, the Nazis were the National Socialism Workers Party in Germany which was govened by Adolf Hitler.

    2016 logic means that we ressess history based on 2016 values ie politically correct and not as per the situation at the time i.e 1939 - 1945.

    Trust this helps your understanding

    Trust this helps
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    Boris

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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:51 pm

    rayebbram1 wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    rayebbram1 wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    Boris wrote:
    Angus wrote:
    chicken wrote:
    LeedsRam wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:If anyone out there still has any doubts about the significance of yesterday's inquest result for the integrity of our justice system, I urge you to download BBC Radio 5Live's excellent podcast "Hillsborough - the Truth".

    Two of the most important hours you will ever spend listening to the radio.

    I concur. For me the events that followed the disaster are the most irreprehensible. The systematic cover up from the top down when they knew full well what had really happened, and whose fault it was, is disgraceful human behaviour. They also knew full well the effect their cover up had on the families of the dead. Shameful. It could have been us and our families so for those who seem to still believe this inquest has been a waste of time just think about that.

    I agree.  What happened in the aftermath, the condemnation of the Liverpool fans by the media, the police and everybody else, turned a nation against Liverpool fans.  I must say that included myself for years.  

    Everyone involved, from the lying coppers, the lying politicians and those in the lying media need to be locked up and the key thrown away.  They all knew exactly what they were doing, it's disgusting and shameful.

    Is it right though to do that after 27 years, no great surprise the verdict is different given the time lapsed. Closer to the event, people knew what football stadiums were like, how the police behaved at matches and how fans behaved back then. Time clouds the memory, if indeed you have any memory of 1989. Taylor Report was pretty fair and put the majority of the blame on the Police.

    For this reason, it would be interesting to have more information about the jury. We know that 6 of them were women, which is an interesting factor, but what were the ages of the jurors, where were they from? Unless they were all at least 45 years old and match-going fans in the 80's, how can they really have any idea what it was like to go to any match, let alone an FA Cup semi-final back then?

    It's easy for somebody who knows what stadiums are like now to decide that stadiums in 1989 were not fit for the purpose, easy to decide that policing methods at the time were not satisfactory, easy to decide that medical services were not as well trained enough to be able to deal with this type of disaster as they are now and easy to think that fans behaved in 1989 the same way they do at a Derby County home game in 2016.

    If the CPS pursues criminal proceedings which would have to be at a Sheffield Crown Court and with an independent jury and the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt and all the evidence would have to be adduced, it is quite possible that the "Independent" Hillsborough Enquiry which overturned the original inquest and the subsequent inquest which took longer than the Nuremburg trials would be examined, certainly the verdict on question 7 is open to serious question from any layman, plenty of footage of what occurred outside, a mob even climbing over the turnstiles to enter the stadium.


    Angus, the Liverpool fans have been cleared of contributing to the Hillsborough disaster, the police have accepted that, the Sun newspaper who printed the lies have accepted it so why do YOU keep bringing this garbage up? You just simply can't let the truth get in the way of your unfounded, ludicrous prejudice and hatred for people from Liverpool can you? As other posters have said, thank God it wasn't us Derby fans there on that fateful day, it could well have been, we were there in 1976. Your dismissive, casual attitude to people's deaths, deaths that could have been prevented, the idea we should just forget about it as it was a while ago is staggering. Those families have been suffering for 26 years. I would never have got over it if it had of been my son, father, brother. You would think differently if it had of been someone close to you. Shame on you Angus.

    No you are misreading me probably deliberately, I had personal experience of what some Liverpool fans were like around that time, if you speak to most Forest fans who were there and where I live there are loads they all pretty much concur with what I say, as do Sheffield people who were in the area. No jury 27 years later will change minds.

    Those deaths could have been prevented but the culture of the time created that environment, unimaginable to youngsters today, that was why fences were up for example. What went wrong was sorted and blame apportioned in 1990, nothing will bring people back. I understand the unlawful killing verdict with the extra evidence dug up, uncovering exactly what the police are capable of to cover their backsides is good for justice in this country but to say that fans conduct outside didn't play any part is a step too far. Taylor had it right in 1990, they exaggerated the problems the authorities created and when you add the bad decisions from the match command it proved a lethal cocktail.


    Action was swiftly taken after this disaster so nothing similar could ever happen again, which wasn't the case with others.

    You know what your blind denial reminds me of Angus, holocaust denial. Despite all the evidence, some simply decide not to believe it. You imply the jury at the inquest were some how not independent, you down play all the key aspects. Somehow it's alright for the powers that be to lie. That's ok, not a problem. It is just not worth having a debate with you Angus, it is like flogging a dead horse. I for one am delighted that the truth is finally out, the people that have seen 2 years of evidence have come to that conclusion and I trust them much more than I do your irrational prejudice. Now after justice, the families hopefully will get accountability and those responsible will be brought before the courts. Any reasonable, pragmatic and empathetic human being would want that. I actually, in a very small way feel sorry for you Angus.
    Interestingly that you mention the Holocaust because it emerged that Churchill & Eisenhower both knew about the atrocities but did nothing. Under 2016 logic they would now be liable and the Nazis would be exonerated.

    You've lost me...who are Churchill and Eisenhower in your scenario? What's the 2016 logic??? Who are the Nazi's??

    History lesson  - Churchill was the UK prime minister during the 2nd world war and Eisenhower was the President of the USA, the Nazis were the National Socialism Workers Party in Germany which was govened by Adolf Hitler.

    2016 logic means that we ressess history based on 2016 values ie politically correct and not as per the  situation at the time i.e 1939 - 1945.

    Trust this helps your understanding

    Trust this helps

    It was in fact the National Socialist German Workers' Party if I recall from my History degree, when trying to take the pi*s at least get it right or it falls a bit flat Rolling Eyes
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by chicken on Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:03 pm

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hillsborough-disaster-decision-police-incompetent-organised-lies-mark-steel-a7005036.html
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by RRC on Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:20 pm

    Has everyone had their say on this now?

    It doesn't look as if the posts are changing anyone's mind.



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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by derbygee on Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:31 pm

    RRC wrote:Has everyone had their say on this now?

    It doesn't look as if the posts are changing anyone's mind.

    Only scratched the surface but my typing skills mean it would take too long to explain the real depth of my loathing for SYorks Police, Sheffield Wednesdays stewarding, Manchester Uniteds scummy fans,Magaret Thatchers government and worst of all Murdoch and the Sun
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by RRC on Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:39 pm

    derbygee wrote:
    RRC wrote:Has everyone had their say on this now?

    It doesn't look as if the posts are changing anyone's mind.

    Only scratched the surface but my typing skills mean it would take too long to explain the real depth of my loathing for SYorks Police, Sheffield Wednesdays stewarding, Manchester Uniteds scummy fans,Magaret Thatchers government and worst of all Murdoch and the Sun

    I'd already gathered all that from your previous posts and I'd guess that other forum members may have too.

    Is there really much point in repeating it, apart from relieving your feelings?

    I sincerely hope that the victims' families and friends feel vindicated and will be able to move on in time.



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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by derbygee on Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:41 pm

    RRC wrote:
    derbygee wrote:
    RRC wrote:Has everyone had their say on this now?

    It doesn't look as if the posts are changing anyone's mind.

    Only scratched the surface but my typing skills mean it would take too long to explain the real depth of my loathing for SYorks Police, Sheffield Wednesdays stewarding, Manchester Uniteds scummy fans,Magaret Thatchers government and worst of all Murdoch and the Sun


    I sincerely hope that the victims' families and friends feel vindicated and will be able to move on in time.
    me too but I gather the support group are moving ahead pressing for prosecutions. Good luck to them.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Stockport Ram on Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:43 pm

    I agree RRC.

    Time to close the book.
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:00 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:I agree RRC.

    Time to close the book.

    Agreed, final toast to the families of the 96..your dignity shone through and you did the loved ones you lost very proud. You got justice and in time you will get accountability Toast
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:12 am

    Boris had to have the last say, who knew!
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by MadAmster on Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:28 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Boris had to have the last say, who knew!

    Didn't surrprise me Embarassed



    Gary Rowett's black & white army! The only certainty is we're all barmy LOL roll
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by Boris on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:11 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Boris had to have the last say, who knew!

    COYR
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    Re: Hillsborough inquest

    Post by RRC on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:35 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Boris had to have the last say, who knew!

    Not this time!

    This thread is now closed.




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