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    Defensive weakness

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    bramhallram

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    Defensive weakness

    Post by bramhallram on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 8:54 am

    What's suddenly gone wrong with our defence ? A few weeks ago we had one of the best defensive records in our league. We didn't score many goals, but we didn't concede many either.

    Now we can't do the basics and our opponents look like scoring from every free kick and corner. Who would have thought we'd concede seven goals in our last two home games ?

    If our defensive problems aren't fixed the Brighton game could be very one-sided.

    .
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    CornwallRam

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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by CornwallRam on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 9:02 am

    bramhallram wrote:What's suddenly gone wrong with our defence ? A few weeks ago we had one of the best defensive records in our league. We didn't score many goals, but we didn't concede many either.

    Now we can't do the basics and our opponents look like scoring from every free kick and corner. Who would have thought we'd concede seven goals in our last two home games ?

    If our defensive problems aren't fixed the Brighton game could be very one-sided.

    .

    Steve McClaren
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by RRC on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 10:07 am

    CornwallRam wrote:
    bramhallram wrote:What's suddenly gone wrong with our defence ? A few weeks ago we had one of the best defensive records in our league. We didn't score many goals, but we didn't concede many either.

    Now we can't do the basics and our opponents look like scoring from every free kick and corner. Who would have thought we'd concede seven goals in our last two home games ?

    If our defensive problems aren't fixed the Brighton game could be very one-sided.

    .

    Steve McClaren

    Seems very likely - Newcastle conceded almost 2 goals a game
    when SM was in charge, and 1.2 goals for the rest of the season.



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    chicken
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by chicken on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 10:11 am

    Having no protection in front of  it. Without a proper functioning DM, this defence is weak and as Bradley Johnson seems to only have 6/7 decent games a season in him, we have struggled. Julien de Sart may have potential but at times he's looked lost. Where's John Eustace when you need him?
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by RRC on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 10:18 am

    Imho it's a weakness of 4-3-3 - other teams that play 4-3-3 have the same problem
    of conceding too many goals unless they also score so many goals that it doesn't matter.

    Teams that play 3-5-2 don't have that problem because they can control games in
    the midfield, so they rarely need 4 defenders, let alone 5 or 6, which we often do
    because our midfield 3 is swamped by our opponents' midfield 4 or 5.


    Last edited by RRC on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total



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    purpleram

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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by purpleram on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 10:20 am

    chicken wrote:Having no protection in front of  it. Without a proper functioning DM, this defence is weak and as Bradley Johnson seems to only have 6/7 decent games a season in him, we have struggled. Julien de Sart may have potential but at times he's looked lost. Where's John Eustace when you need him?

    Exactumdo, if I could be arsed I would do a pie chart that shows how better our defensive record is with Eustace, Thorn type players looking after that DM spot.

    To me the last Mclaren slump started not with Martins injury but the loss of Thorn and Eustace.

    Whether losing that stability then alters the mindset leading to slow tempo, crabesque passing etc. is a reasonable bet IMO.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by RRC on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:04 am

    purpleram wrote:
    chicken wrote:Having no protection in front of it. Without a proper functioning DM, this defence is weak and as Bradley Johnson seems to only have 6/7 decent games a season in him, we have struggled. Julien de Sart may have potential but at times he's looked lost. Where's John Eustace when you need him?

    Exactumdo, if I could be arsed I would do a pie chart that shows how better our defensive record is with Eustace, Thorn type players looking after that DM spot.

    To me the last Mclaren slump started not with Martins injury but the loss of Thorn and Eustace.

    Whether losing that stability then alters the mindset leading to slow tempo, crabesque passing etc. is a reasonable bet IMO.

    Isn't a system so dependent on having a super player in one position (DM) always going to fail
    at some point, especially if the player is injury prone (Thorne) or unable to play every game
    when games pile up (Eustace or any older, experienced player)?

    Imho it's the main weakness of 4-3-3 - variations on 3-5-2 don't depend so much on one player.
    Even when we had our best team in the playoffs, QPR managed to stop us from scoring, because
    other systems and set-ups can stop 4-3-3 in midfield.

    Don't think 4-3-3 can work well enough in the championship to get promotion.
    It's not an accident that none of the 10 teams above us plays 4-3-3 - they use 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2.



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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by chicken on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:19 am

    Well we aren't going to be playing any other formation any time soon, nor will he drop Captain Calamity, so I don't know what the answer is.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by MadAmster on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:08 pm

    I rate de Sart. The problem with him is that he is much better in a positive role than a "negative" one. He looks to go forward and make attacking passes which have the downside of having more risk than backuds or sideways. That means the oppo will get the ball more often and we all know where that leads.

    With the problems we are having with no "proper" DM available, should we change the formation and go 1-4-4-2 or 1-3-5-2 or anything but 1-4-3-3?




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    rob

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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by rob on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:21 pm

    Maclaren has proved time and time and time again - he cant change the formation - and our "players" have proved time and time and time again that they are too thick/rubbish to play any other system

    the definition of madness is keep doing the same thing and expect different results - Derby County under Maclaren are the definition of madness
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    valakari

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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by valakari on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

    ..or would you lot rather go back to Pearson and his 442 that had us 4th bottom and playing shit football...think you should be careful what you wish for.
    When McClaren has players back and can get a couple in and many out...with a full pre season...i think we shall see 433 at its best, with good attacking football and finishing in the top 2 next season.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by rob on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:31 pm

    I was surprised Pearson failed so badly but I will NEVER think Steve Mac is the answer to anything positive

    Never go back - he had the dead cat bounce but it is now same old same old

    and relying on Thorne being fit for more than 5 mins and Chris Martin not throwing a hissy fit is a massive hope
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by chicken on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 1:41 pm

    valakari wrote:..or would you lot rather go back to Pearson and his 442 that had us 4th bottom and playing shit football...think you should be careful what you wish for.
    When McClaren has players back and can get a couple in and many out...with a full pre season...i think we shall see 433 at its best, with good attacking football and finishing in the top 2 next season.

    There is no way we will finish in the top two with McClaren in charge.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by bramhallram on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 3:04 pm

    valakari wrote:..or would you lot rather go back to Pearson and his 442 that had us 4th bottom and playing shit football...think you should be careful what you wish for.
    When McClaren has players back and can get a couple in and many out...with a full pre season...i think we shall see 433 at its best, with good attacking football and finishing in the top 2 next season.

    I like your optimism, Valakari, but how often do teams get promoted playing 433 ? Winning teams are built on a strong back four, pace and power in attack, and are driven and controlled by a hard working four man midfield.

    I know we've had a few false dawns at Derby, but in the end average Championship players like ours can't handle the demands of playing a 433 system.

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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by CornwallRam on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 3:54 pm

    rob wrote:I was surprised Pearson failed so badly but I will NEVER think Steve Mac is the answer to anything positive

    Never go back - he had the dead cat bounce but it is now same old same old

    and relying on Thorne being fit for more than 5 mins and Chris Martin not throwing a hissy fit is a massive hope

    Pearson didn't fail though did he? (except maybe in failing to control his temper) He was sacked very early in the season. Clearly the results and performances were poor, but I reckon that we'd have been improving by now if he'd have stayed. My guess is that we'd be in a similar league position to what we are now, but be on an upward, not a downward trajectory.

    We'll never succeed playing 433. This squad can only play 433 so any attempt to change that will result in a downturn in results. It is both inevitable and essential if we are ever going to escape this division.

    I reckon that McClaren will be gone by the time August rolls around - Mel won't accept a 12th place finish. The new manager will struggle at first and next season won't be pretty, but hopefully the next manager will be able to remain diplomatic when Mel starts to question him about results in October.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by Rams bottom on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 5:00 pm

    bramhallram wrote:
    valakari wrote:..or would you lot rather go back to Pearson and his 442 that had us 4th bottom and playing shit football...think you should be careful what you wish for.
    When McClaren has players back and can get a couple in and many out...with a full pre season...i think we shall see 433 at its best, with good attacking football and finishing in the top 2 next season.

    I like your optimism, Valakari, but how often do teams get promoted playing 433 ? Winning teams are built on a strong back four, pace and power in attack, and are driven and controlled by a hard working four man midfield.

    I know we've had a few false dawns at Derby, but in the end average Championship players like ours can't handle the demands of playing a 433 system.

    Heard it all before next season next season not going to happen let's be realistic SM doesn't have it in his locker and CM is not the messiah.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by Jackal on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 5:39 pm

    Rams bottom wrote:
    bramhallram wrote:
    valakari wrote:..or would you lot rather go back to Pearson and his 442 that had us 4th bottom and playing shit football...think you should be careful what you wish for.
    When McClaren has players back and can get a couple in and many out...with a full pre season...i think we shall see 433 at its best, with good attacking football and finishing in the top 2 next season.

    I like your optimism, Valakari, but how often do teams get promoted playing 433 ? Winning teams are built on a strong back four, pace and power in attack, and are driven and controlled by a hard working four man midfield.

    I know we've had a few false dawns at Derby, but in the end average Championship players like ours can't handle the demands of playing a 433 system.

    Heard it all before next season next season not going to happen let's be realistic SM doesn't have it in his locker and CM is not the messiah.
    No Chris Martin is not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by Rams bottom on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 6:00 pm

    Jackal wrote:
    Rams bottom wrote:
    bramhallram wrote:
    valakari wrote:..or would you lot rather go back to Pearson and his 442 that had us 4th bottom and playing shit football...think you should be careful what you wish for.
    When McClaren has players back and can get a couple in and many out...with a full pre season...i think we shall see 433 at its best, with good attacking football and finishing in the top 2 next season.

    I like your optimism, Valakari, but how often do teams get promoted playing 433 ? Winning teams are built on a strong back four, pace and power in attack, and are driven and controlled by a hard working four man midfield.

    I know we've had a few false dawns at Derby, but in the end average Championship players like ours can't handle the demands of playing a 433 system.

    Heard it all before next season next season not going to happen let's be realistic SM doesn't have it in his locker and CM is not the messiah.
    No Chris Martin is not the messiah, he's just a very naughty boy.
    P*** off Wink
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by Stockport Ram on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 7:00 pm

    CornwallRam wrote:
    rob wrote:I was surprised Pearson failed so badly but I will NEVER think Steve Mac is the answer to anything positive

    Never go back - he had the dead cat bounce but it is now same old same old

    and relying on Thorne being fit for more than 5 mins and Chris Martin not throwing a hissy fit is a massive hope

    Pearson didn't fail though did he? (except maybe in failing to control his temper) He was sacked very early in the season. Clearly the results and performances were poor, but I reckon that we'd have been improving by now if he'd have stayed. My guess is that we'd be in a similar league position to what we are now, but be on an upward, not a downward trajectory.

    We'll never succeed playing 433. This squad can only play 433 so any attempt to change that will result in a downturn in results. It is both inevitable and essential if we are ever going to escape this division.

    I reckon that McClaren will be gone by the time August rolls around - Mel won't accept a 12th place finish. The new manager will struggle at first and next season won't be pretty, but hopefully the next manager will be able to remain diplomatic when Mel starts to question him about results in October.

    I suppose that depends on whether he's very good or not....
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by RRC on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 7:48 pm

    If the league table was ordered by goals conceded or goals scored, Derby would be -

    5th on goals conceded
    16th on goals scored

    So is the defence really our weakness, or is it the system that we play?

    Imho the real problem is 4-3-3 and the midfield 3, which can't compete effectively
    against the midfields of 4 or 5 which our opponents play. Our 3 can't challenge the
    4 or 5 players, even if they run themselves ragged, and they can't create many
    decent chances simply because they're outnumbered and there's less space.

    So we resort to long balls, which doesn't suit our forwards and means that the ball
    comes back quickly and we're defending for longer and longer spells.

    Other managers have twigged how to stop us and SM either has no idea how to
    counter this or isn't willing to try anything different. More of the same doesn't work.



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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by norfolkram on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 11:01 pm

    RRC wrote:If the league table was ordered by goals conceded or goals scored, Derby would be -

    5th on goals conceded
    16th on goals scored

    So is the defence really our weakness, or is it the system that we play?

    Imho the real problem is 4-3-3 and the midfield 3, which can't compete effectively
    against the midfields of 4 or 5 which our opponents play. Our 3 can't challenge the
    4 or 5 players, even if they run themselves ragged, and they can't create many
    decent chances simply because they're outnumbered and there's less space.

    So we resort to long balls, which doesn't suit our forwards and means that the ball
    comes back quickly and we're defending for longer and longer spells.

    Other managers have twigged how to stop us and SM either has no idea how to
    counter this or isn't willing to try anything different. More of the same doesn't work.

    Apart from those in denial we all know Mcclaren cant cut it, if Morris hadn't bottled it (another Derby way)and let Pearson do the job we'd have a better chance of promotion than we ever will with this chancer.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by Stockport Ram on Fri 17 Feb 2017, 7:16 am

    RRC wrote:If the league table was ordered by goals conceded or goals scored, Derby would be -

    5th on goals conceded
    16th on goals scored

    So is the defence really our weakness, or is it the system that we play?

    Imho the real problem is 4-3-3 and the midfield 3, which can't compete effectively
    against the midfields of 4 or 5 which our opponents play. Our 3 can't challenge the
    4 or 5 players, even if they run themselves ragged, and they can't create many
    decent chances simply because they're outnumbered and there's less space.

    So we resort to long balls, which doesn't suit our forwards and means that the ball
    comes back quickly and we're defending for longer and longer spells.

    Other managers have twigged how to stop us and SM either has no idea how to
    counter this or isn't willing to try anything different. More of the same doesn't work.

    Wise words RRC. Stats don't lie - well they do, because I believe that Alex Stepney was Manure's joint top scorer at Christmas 1973 with two goals, but you get my drift.

    I still think, Carson (and possibly Baird) apart, the constituent parts are not good enough to challenge top six. Pearce had an absolute mare against Brizzle, left his man in the box for two of the goals, and a third time when he missed from three yards. He has performed better than I expected overall, but games like that show that we aren't good enough.

    I would also point out that during both of Bent and Ince's prolific half seasons under SM, we simply don't score enough goals throughout the team.... and sooner or later that results in us slipping down the table. Good sides generally have three or four others who contribute half a dozen or more in the way that Bryson, JR and even Jamie Ward used to. Is that also the fault of the formation, I wonder?
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 17 Feb 2017, 8:02 am

    With most teams only playing 2, or even 1, up top, is a back 4 really necessary any more. I think that teams need to set themselves up differently. There are several possibilities that are well known such as 1-3-5-2 or the 1-3-2-3-2 variant. The 2 up top could be split into a 1-1................. the possibilities are many and varied. I would like to offer a variant that addresses the changes that have taken place in the game since the 1960s.
    In England we had a penchant for the flat back 4. That changed with some teams who went 1-4-4-2 with the 2 fours in a "dish" form, so we have experienced "change". The back 5 looks like this....


    GK

    Sweeper

    Full back Full back

    CH cum DM


    The 2 "CH's" have a different role. The rear of the 2 has a role similar to the "sweeper" role. The more forward of the 2 has almost a double role, that of CH and that of DM (A fit GT would be perfect here....... no harm in dreaming....). What do you have ahead of the defence? Again there are choices. Go 4-2 and you have the choice between flat and dish formations in MF. Go 3-3 and you have the choice of flat 3's, 2 chevrons pointing forwards or 2 chevrons pointing backwards. The forwards pointing variant is an attacking version, backwards more defensive. The forward pointing version could also be seen as 1-4-4-2 where both the back 4 and MF 4 are diamonds.......


    Edited because my x's didn't portray the intended diamond....... Embarassed


    Last edited by MadAmster on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 9:54 am; edited 2 times in total



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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by outsider on Fri 17 Feb 2017, 5:50 pm

    valakari wrote:..or would you lot rather go back to Pearson and his 442 that had us 4th bottom and playing shit football...think you should be careful what you wish for.
    When McClaren has players back and can get a couple in and many out...with a full pre season...i think we shall see 433 at its best, with good attacking football and finishing in the top 2 next season.

    It February and we planning for next seasons attempt .. It's crazy but realistic. The last 2/3 games the will of alot of derby fans have just given up... It's the derby way.
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    Re: Defensive weakness

    Post by MadAmster on Sat 18 Feb 2017, 9:56 am

    MadAmster wrote:With most teams only playing 2, or even 1, up top, is a back 4 really necessary any more. I think that teams need to set themselves up differently. There are several possibilities that are well known such as 1-3-5-2 or the 1-3-2-3-2 variant. The 2 up top could be split into a 1-1................. the possibilities are many and varied. I would like to offer a variant that addresses the changes that have taken place in the game since the 1960s.
    In England we had a penchant for the flat back 4. That changed with some teams who went 1-4-4-2 with the 2 fours in a "dish" form, so we have experienced "change". The back 5 looks like this.... and ignore the x's LOL


    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx   GK

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxSweeper

    Full back xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Full back

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxCH cum DM


    The 2 "CH's" have a different role. The rear of the 2 has a role similar to the "sweeper" role. The more forward of the 2 has almost a double role, that of CH and that of DM (A fit GT would be perfect here....... no harm in dreaming....). What do you have ahead of the defence? Again there are choices. Go 4-2 and you have the choice between flat and dish formations in MF. Go 3-3 and you have the choice of flat 3's, 2 chevrons pointing forwards or 2 chevrons pointing backwards. The forwards pointing variant is an attacking version, backwards more defensive. The forward pointing version could also be seen as 1-4-4-2 where both the back 4 and MF 4 are diamonds.......


    Edited because my x's didn't portray the intended diamond....... Embarassed



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