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    The formation

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    Total Votes: 13
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    Barnstaple Ram

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    The formation

    Post by Barnstaple Ram on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 1:47 pm

    I am totally confused by many on here

    Last season Pearson tried to play 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) and many moaned we should play 4-3-3.

    Most of last season I read many times that we need Martin to play 4-3-3 effectively.

    Now we have Martin back I am reading that 4-3-3 isn't correct

    so what formation does everyone think we should play
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    MadAmster

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    Re: The formation

    Post by MadAmster on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 2:04 pm

    Any system will work as long as you have the right players to play it. 1-4-3-3 using a target man like Martin works when you have midfielders and wide men close to him to receive his passes and he needs to get decent ball into his feet to be able to give the flicks. Martin isn't getting service nor is he getting support so it isn't going to work. If GR insists on this formation he either has to get the team to adhere to these tactics or get somebody else in the team (from the squad, the academy or someone new) or change the tactics.

    What would work with this squad? I would love to see 3 at the back with a DM in front of them 2 "wing backs" who can get up and down the wing both in attack and in defence. 2 central midfielders who are box to box and can actually pass with accuracy. 2 strikers who are different from one another and complement each other. Even a 1-3-2-3-2 would be no bad idea.

    Anything but 1-4-3-3 with players don't have the complementing skill sets required for it to be successful.



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    New England Ram
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    Re: The formation

    Post by New England Ram on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 2:19 pm

    4-4-2 easier to make mediocrity look organized and effective in my book.



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    MadAmster

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    Re: The formation

    Post by MadAmster on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 3:00 pm

    BTW - I wrote to DCFC in the summer giving them my view on 3 things that, IMO, needed changing. It will surprise noone that I didn't get a reply.......

    What did I suggest?

    1. Get the fullbacks closer to the winger so that they can intercept the pass or at least put the winger under pressure, possibly take the ball off him and prevent a cross being made. To do this they have to get the angles and distances with regard to the winger right.

    2. Stop using zonal defending in and around our own penalty area. Space hasn't scored against us but players IN space have.

    3. Get all the one legged wonders we have to work on their "wrong" leg every afternoon so that they build the confidence to use it.

    I stand by all 3 suggestions and have seen nothing in pre season or since to change my stance.



    Oh David Nugent, Oh David Nugent, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston, we found him in Preston at the side of the road in a Volkswagen beetle............
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    bramhallram

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    Re: The formation

    Post by bramhallram on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 3:03 pm

    In his interview last night GR admitted he knew how Wolves would set up (3-5-2) and yet did nothing to deal with that formation. Curtis Davies said the same thing in his own interview, but he doesn't get paid to decide what formation we play.

    Wolves tactics were apparent from the start. They seemed to be...
    1. Win the ball in midfield at every opportunity
    2. Don't faff about with it. Hit the wide men early
    3. Get crosses into the goalmouth quickly
    4. Support the strikers from midfield
    5. Shoot for goal whenever in range
    6. Repeat 1 to 5 throughout the game

    In the two league games we've played so far there has been no sign of 4-3-3 producing any goals. Nor has there been any obvious leadership on the field.

    The formation has to change, and 4-4-2 is probably the safest given the players we have. Over to you GR.

    .
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: The formation

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 4:05 pm

    No surprise from me, I have been saying from the end of last season that we should go for 3 at the back and nothing has changed. We have the players to suit that formation although Christie would probably have offered more as a right wing back than Anya. For the time being I would probably go with Olsen as left wing back as Forsyth clearly isn't back up to full speed. In front of Huddlestone I 'd go with Bryson and Hansen, and then Nugent and Vydra terrorising their back 4
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    CornwallRam

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    Re: The formation

    Post by CornwallRam on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 4:57 pm

    IMO we have two big issues which need to be addressed -

    1 - Chris Martin. He's ideal for 433 when the team is built around him, but even at its peak, that formation hasn't been adequate to get us promoted. The manager feels duty bound to utilise our main and previously prolific centre forward, but in every game I've seen him not playing in a 433 he's looked very poor. If we are to progress, Chris Martin can't be a starter. He's not a proper target man and too slow to be a mobile, dynamic forward.

    2 - Our lack of pace and bite in midfield. Huddlestone can pass, but doesn't tackle or track back and might actually be slower than Chris Martin. Butterfield is just useless. Johnson has the requisite combativeness, but isn't a very good footballer and seems to struggle with the pace of the game sometimes. Bryson is struggling with fitness, but has never been a tackler.

    With this squad as it currently stands fitness wise, I can't see a formation to actually suit. The best tactic that I can see is to get dynamic strikers interchanging and running the channels, with Huddlestone's passing ability being used to find them. That will require that he would need a mobile defensive midfielder next to him, to make up for his defensive frailties. Johnson is perhaps the best suited for that role, so my formation with the current would look something like this-

    Carson
    Wisdom Keogh Davies
    Anya------------------------Forsyth
    Huddlestone Johnson
    Bennett Vydra
    Nugent
    With a fully fit squad I'd go

    Carson
    Wisdom Keogh Davies
    Anya------------------------Forsyth
    Thorne
    Elsnik Bryson
    Nugent Vydra
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    rjrules71

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    Re: The formation

    Post by rjrules71 on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 5:43 pm

    New England Ram wrote:4-4-2 easier to make mediocrity look organized and effective in my book.


    Amen to that Clapping



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    DavesaRam

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    Re: The formation

    Post by DavesaRam on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 8:53 pm

    CornwallRam wrote:IMO we have two big issues which need to be addressed -

    1 - Chris Martin. He's ideal for 433 when the team is built around him, but even at its peak, that formation hasn't been adequate to get us promoted. The manager feels duty bound to utilise our main and previously prolific centre forward, but in every game I've seen him not playing in a 433 he's looked very poor. If we are to progress, Chris Martin can't be a starter. He's not a proper target man and too slow to be a mobile, dynamic forward.

    2 - Our lack of pace and bite in midfield. Huddlestone can pass, but doesn't tackle or track back and might actually be slower than Chris Martin. Butterfield is just useless. Johnson has the requisite combativeness, but isn't a very good footballer and seems to struggle with the pace of the game sometimes. Bryson is struggling with fitness, but has never been a tackler.

    With this squad as it currently stands fitness wise, I can't see a formation to actually suit. The best tactic that I can see is to get dynamic strikers interchanging and running the channels, with Huddlestone's passing ability being used to find them. That will require that he would need a mobile defensive midfielder next to him, to make up for his defensive frailties. Johnson is perhaps the best suited for that role, so my formation with the current would look something like this-

    Carson
    Wisdom Keogh Davies
    Anya------------------------Forsyth
    Huddlestone Johnson
    Bennett Vydra
    Nugent
    With a fully fit squad I'd go

    Carson
    Wisdom Keogh Davies
    Anya------------------------Forsyth
    Thorne
    Elsnik Bryson
    Nugent Vydra

    At last, someone wants Elsnick to be given a chance. So do I, he is perhaps the only one on our books with a creative flair, at least until Thorne gets back.



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    SawleyRam

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    Re: The formation

    Post by SawleyRam on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 10:00 pm

    Tin hat time here but I would suggest that with Huddleston's passing ability a striker that plays off the shoulder of their last defender would score goals, Darren Bent anyone?

    I'm back on the tablets tomorrow........
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    valakari

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    Re: The formation

    Post by valakari on Sun 13 Aug 2017, 10:57 pm

    Darren Bent..not anymore!..anyway, he plays for Arsenal now...
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    rob

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    Re: The formation

    Post by rob on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 12:40 pm

    isn't working
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: The formation

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 9:32 pm

    The formation matters less than leadership on the pitch IMHO.

    If GR wants to change things he should start with resting Keogh from captaincy. If that means that Keogh has to have 'a groin strain', so be it.

    The media keep interviewing our obvious potential captain after the games (Davies). Although he has looked rusty, it would be useful to find out whether he can provide some coherent leadership on the pitch. As GR said 'he has been captain pretty much wherever he has played'.

    After Saturday, now's the time to give him a go with the DCFC armband IMHO.

    I think that this change would have more impact than changing the formation (although I accept that the formation is obviously important)

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    valakari

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    Re: The formation

    Post by valakari on Mon 14 Aug 2017, 11:47 pm

    Davies isn't that Great! We seem to buy players that their current team don't want...should be a clue...yet the majority of the ones we sell....are our better players....are we completely stupid?!
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    ShardlowSheep

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    Re: The formation

    Post by ShardlowSheep on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 9:34 am

    4-3-3 can work with the right players, on Saturday the choice of players for the formation was not right. You have to get in and around the centre forward and we just didn;t do thaton Saturday. I have voted for 3-5-2 this is the system that Wolves appeared to be playing and their wide men / full backs caused problems all game.
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: The formation

    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 10:12 am

    ShardlowSheep wrote:4-3-3 can work with the right players, on Saturday the choice of players for the formation was not right. You have to get in and around the centre forward and we just didn;t do thaton Saturday. I have voted for 3-5-2 this is the system that Wolves appeared to be playing and their wide men / full backs caused problems all game.

    Players need to move quickly on and OFF the ball for that system to work Shards, something that is one of our main problems no matter what formationation we use.
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    RRC
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    Re: The formation

    Post by RRC on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 11:39 am

    ShardlowSheep wrote:4-3-3 can work with the right players, on Saturday the choice of players for the formation was not right. You have to get in and around the centre forward and we just didn;t do thaton Saturday. I have voted for 3-5-2 this is the system that Wolves appeared to be playing and their wide men / full backs caused problems all game.

    4-3-3- failed narrowly with these players (probably as good as we're ever likely to have,
    because most side a few weaker links) -

    L Grant (P Bamford, 90)
    A Wisdom, R Keogh, J Buxton, C Forsyth
    W Hughes (C Bryson, 68), G Thorne, J Hendrick
    J Ward, C Martin, J Russell (S Dawkins, 67)

    After that tactical lesson at Wembley, most championship clubs know how to stop us from
    playing, though not all of them have the players to do so. I reckon we'd need to sign a few
    players from Barcelona to make it work well enough - our championship players have
    proved over the past three seasons that it doesn't get us over the line to promotion.

    It's well past time for a change.



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    valakari

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    Re: The formation

    Post by valakari on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 12:44 pm

    looking at that side....its the midfield that we have decimated!..at least play Bryson
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    norfolkram

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    Re: The formation

    Post by norfolkram on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 6:05 pm

    352 with Vydra and Nugent up top,old fatty to slow and predictable
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    OldChapelRam

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    Re: The formation

    Post by OldChapelRam on Tue 15 Aug 2017, 10:24 pm

    The key to making 4-3-3 (or 4-5-1 if you prefer) is the two wide players. Look at those 4 - Ward, Russell, Bamford, Dawkins - all different, all pacy with an ability to create as well as score goals. Russell has never reproduced that season and what we have now is a shadow of those players. Ince provided a sticking plaster for a while, but we have needed wide players since Bamford and then Ward left. Add to that the energy, movement and skill in midfield and that was a team that should have got out of the division.

    I look back and all the successful Derby teams I easily remember all played one up front but had creativity and goals around them. Think Jim Smith (better days), Burley, Davies, Clough/McLaren.
    I still think the best formation for Derby long term is 4-5-1/4-3-3 as 4-4-2 is likely to be too open against the better teams, but we need to up the workrate, tempo and bring in another player like Lawrence to give it any chance of working.

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    Re: The formation

    Post by Barnstaple Ram on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 12:20 pm

    OldChapelRam wrote:The key to making 4-3-3 (or 4-5-1 if you prefer) is the two wide players.  Look at those 4 - Ward, Russell, Bamford, Dawkins - all different, all pacy with an ability to create as well as score goals.  Russell has never reproduced that season and what we have now is a shadow of those players.  Ince provided a sticking plaster for a while, but we have needed wide players since Bamford and then Ward left.  Add to that the energy, movement and skill in midfield and that was a team that should have got out of the division.

    I look back and all the successful Derby teams I easily remember all played one up front but had creativity and goals around them.  Think Jim Smith (better days), Burley, Davies, Clough/McLaren.
    I still think the best formation for Derby long term is 4-5-1/4-3-3 as 4-4-2 is likely to be too open against the better teams, but we need to up the workrate, tempo and bring in another player like Lawrence to give it any chance of working.


    surely Jim Smiths better days (promotion season and finishng 8th) were based on 3-4-1-2 formations Sturridge and Gabbiadini then Sturridge and Wanchope

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