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    Johnny Russell

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    bramhallram

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    Johnny Russell

    Post by bramhallram on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 9:56 pm

    As own goals go, that was a classic. I doubt we'll see a better one this season.

    GR  "Hello, Johnny. Is that you ?"

    JR    "Och aye, boss."

    GR "Look, I know I said run into the box and shoot hard for goal, but..."

    .
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Stockport Ram on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 10:16 pm

    It looked terrible on the TV when I got home.

    What excuses him a little is that he was the first Derby player during that attack to even try to put a challenge in - we simply sat off and allowed them to play and pass into our box.


    There was one point towards the end of the first half when Wisdom and Davies were going at each other seven bells prior to defending a corner, and their captain basically should have banged their heads together and sorted them out. At one point he was in the middle of their argument but when he tried to put his two pennor'th in they just seemed to ignore him.

    We do have one or two leaders on the pitch - although not enough - just not the one with the armband....and it shows.
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 10:40 pm

    Stockport Ram wrote:It looked terrible on the TV when I got home.

    What excuses him a little is that he was the first Derby player  during that attack to even try to put a challenge in - we simply sat off and allowed them to play and pass into our box.


    There was one point towards the end of the first half when Wisdom and Davies were going at each other seven bells prior to defending a corner, and their captain basically should have banged their heads together and sorted them out. At one point he was in the middle of their argument but when he tried to put his two pennor'th in they just seemed to ignore him.

    We do have one or two leaders on the pitch - although not enough - just not the one with the armband....and it shows.  

    spot on

    I felt sorry for Russell. At least he puts a shift in.

    Keogh's football is ok at the moment (he made a few decent headers today and a few blunders today - but we've seen worse from him). He is one of our 2 best CH's at the moment.

    The problem is with his captaincy. Keogh can get away with it with inexperienced / 'quieter' players like Forsyth and Christie. He can't with the likes of Wisdom and Davies (and Huddlestone).

    It is a problem that needs to be sorted out.
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    valakari

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by valakari on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 12:56 am

    sorry?...for Russell?...this lack of composure normally in front of goal at the other end means normally no end product! This time however, well , if it was Keogh doing that...you wouldn't be feeling sorry for him, would you?!!
    Keogh's lack of composure at Wembley has stuck with him, with people like you, ever since...and you just won't let it go...so, as much as i think Butterfield is our worst player, i'm afraid Russell needs replacing....i'm sure that was a reason for buying Lawrence...
    Think we also need to replace Weimann, so we need another winger...Jota maybe?
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Stockport Ram on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 1:00 am

    For the umpteenth time, Wembley for Keogh was an accident waiting to happen.

    He had displayed consistent symptoms week on week, for two years.


    Part of me wishes he hadn't made that fatal error, then perhaps we would all have been able to see his generic failings more clearly.
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    valakari

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by valakari on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 1:21 am

    whatever his failings..he has been our best defender for the last 4 years..and still is!
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 8:52 am

    I wrote in another thread that I would replace the 2 current wide players with Lawrence and Bennett. Hopefully, GR will give it a go and also have us press the oppo when they have the ball.
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by SawleyRam on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 11:31 am

    valakari wrote:sorry?...for Russell?...this lack of composure normally in front of goal at the other end means normally no end product! This time however, well , if it was Keogh doing that...you wouldn't be feeling sorry for him, would you?!!
    Keogh's lack of composure at Wembley has stuck with him, with people like you, ever since...and you just won't let it go...so, as much as i think Butterfield is our worst player, i'm afraid Russell needs replacing....i'm sure that was a reason for buying Lawrence...
    Think we also need to replace Weimann, so we need another winger...Jota maybe?

    Errr, sorry Val to point out the obvious but it was you who has reminded us all of what happened at Wembley......and Keogh's involvement. LOL roll

    chicken
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by chicken on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 7:22 pm

    valakari wrote:sorry?...for Russell?...this lack of composure normally in front of goal at the other end means normally no end product! This time however, well , if it was Keogh doing that...you wouldn't be feeling sorry for him, would you?!!
    Keogh's lack of composure at Wembley has stuck with him, with people like you, ever since...and you just won't let it go...so, as much as i think Butterfield is our worst player, i'm afraid Russell needs replacing....i'm sure that was a reason for buying Lawrence...
    Think we also need to replace Weimann, so we need another winger...Jota maybe?

    Yes, you are right, I won't ever forgive Keogh for his lack of composure at Wembley, nor will I ever forget. I won't forgive for his lack of composure throughout his Derby career either. To completely ignore it is ludicrous because that mistake sums him up.
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Stockport Ram on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 10:01 pm

    valakari wrote:whatever his failings..he has been our best defender for the last 4 years..and still is!

    I don't agree with that, but even if I did - that's the problem then, isn't it?
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by valakari on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 12:46 am

    As a matter of interest..not just me that thinks that...try every manager that he has played under!
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Stockport Ram on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 1:12 am

    valakari wrote:As a matter of interest..not just me that thinks that...try every manager that he has played under!

    Apart, of course, from Clement....who didn't make him captain.

    ...and which of our last six managers is now managing in the Prem?

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by chicken on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 2:23 am

    valakari wrote:As a matter of interest..not just me that thinks that...try every manager that he has played under!

    And haven't we done incredibly well under his leadership ... Rolling Eyes
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 8:35 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:
    valakari wrote:whatever his failings..he has been our best defender for the last 4 years..and still is!

    I don't agree with that,  but even if I did - that's the problem then, isn't it?

    Might it be that both sides of the discussion have lost sight of the full picture by concentrating on one single issue?

    My "big picture" view is:

    1. Keogh is a good defender but not good enough to take a team up. For whatever reason, and it's not always his "fault", he is out out position all too often and is forced to make those last ditch, body on the line blocks, at which he is very good.

    2. Due to his finger pointing, blame game approach on the field he is not Captain material. On the pitch he should be coaching, cajoling, consoling and organising. Instead it's wide eyed, arm waving, blaming folk in a whirling dervish kind of way

    3. We had a period, over a couple of seasons where we scored for fun but didn't go up because we let too many in at the back.

    4. Last season we had one of the meanest defences in the League but failed to score enough to take advantage of our mean defence.

    5. You can't blame Keogh individually as he was part of a team that, collectively, wasn't good enough. Last season's back 4 with a fit GT in front of it plus the attacking prowess of a couple of years ago when we hit 80 odd goals a season would have gone up. Those solely blaming Keogh are, IMO, wrong. However, I refer people to numbers 1 and 2 above. He has been part of bad defences that cost us promotion and also part of a very good one let down by us not scoring enough.

    Summing up:

    He is a decent SBC level defender who would be shown up in the EPL. He is not a Captain IMO. The problem with replacing him with an EPL ready central defender is that a player with the right attributes is already likely to be in the EPL and not prepared to take a step down.



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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Barnstaple Ram on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 9:13 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:
    valakari wrote:As a matter of interest..not just me that thinks that...try every manager that he has played under!

    Apart, of course, from Clement....who didn't make him captain.

    ...and which of our last six managers is now managing in the Prem?

    so the art of being a good enough manager for the prem is solely down to who you make captain?

    Clement still picked him every week , if he is as bad as everyone makes out surely a prem class manager would have dropped him

    I blame whichever manager bought him to the club and originally made him captain,
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Stockport Ram on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 9:48 am

    Good summary Ammy, as usual.


    On point 4, all other seasons (apart from the last one) we had a certain number nine who also scored for fun, and created opportunities for others. For whatever reason, the incumbent manager in August decided that he wasn't for him, at the same time as someone was given a three year extension to his contract....

    Talking of Nigel Pearson, the one thing that he did do right was tell the full backs that their first, second and third priorities were to defend. The fact that that must have been drilled into them from pre-season bears witness to the fact that it took them a good three months after he left to forget it and cause a solid defence to start shipping goals again in the spring. In addition, Baird played over 30 games IIRC, another vital cog in our defensive solidity.

    Our goalscorers (Ince and Bent) simply didn't create enough for others. We relied on Ince's individual ability as a constant "out" ball and although he had a fine scoring season he was really our only option apart from Darren "offside" Bent. Don't get me wrong, Ince had a good season overall but we came to rely on him rather than playing football through the team.

    Perhaps we just continue to shoot ourselves in the foot in "The Derby Way" !
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Stockport Ram on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 9:53 am

    Barnstaple Ram wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:
    valakari wrote:As a matter of interest..not just me that thinks that...try every manager that he has played under!

    Apart, of course, from Clement....who didn't make him captain.

    ...and which of our last six managers is now managing in the Prem?

    so the art of being a good enough manager for the prem is solely down to who you make captain?

    Clement still picked him every week , if he is as bad as everyone makes out surely a prem class manager would have dropped him

    I blame whichever manager bought him to the club and originally made him captain,

    Your captain is your embodiment on the field of play. You have to trust him, and he has to have the respect of those around him. These are two vital components in any successful side. I assume we agree on this point at least !!

    Sammon and CC were NC's biggest mistakes, but the chain of events which necessitated his swift arrival has been well documented many times. Not an excuse, but we needed a centre half pronto before the season started and our hand was forced.
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    valakari

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by valakari on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 10:03 am

    ok, ive had enough...all i can say, its opinions, and Stocky, we both agree on Chris Martin being such a good player for us, but we disagree on Keogh. c'est la vie
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Stockport Ram on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 10:37 am

    valakari wrote:ok, ive had enough...all i can say, its opinions, and Stocky, we both agree on Chris Martin being such a good player for us, but we disagree on Keogh. c'est la vie

    Indeed Sir - it would be so boring if we all agreed on everything, wouldn't it?

    Our passion for our team overrides everything - and long may it continue.

    Clapping
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Angus1 on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 11:31 am

    Jonny was unlucky with the goal on Saturday the first goal was more unforgivable. It might be a lesson to him timing the ball well at the other end rather than trying to smash the ball every time he has a shot might serve him better.

    Saturday Wisdom should have told him to get upfield and take the wing-back himself, still too much blurring of responsibilities for my liking. We looked good up that side after Lawrence came on and got settled into the game, he and Wisdom got a good understanding Wisdom do the defending and back up the play, Lawrence the attacking, quite promising. If Lawrence is instructed to be a second full-back as Russell seems to be these days he may be as ineffective.
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    valakari

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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by valakari on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 2:30 pm

    Johnny wasn't unlucky with 'that goal'...he just showed his lack of composure, lack of intelligence and lack of ability..although it was a good finish Bang head Bang head Bang head
    This,' we all love the cheeky chappy ' routine is wearing thin...he is bang average!
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 3:33 pm

    Val, it's hard to rationalise you're 100% backing of Richard Keogh with this criticism of Jonny Russell. Your description of Russell could just as easily be written about Keogh, "lack of conposure, lack of intelligence and lack of ability" all rounded off with "bang average".

    In my opinion they both contribute to the side but both consistently display their glaring weaknesses which still remain after so many years at the club.

    chicken
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by chicken on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 5:07 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Val, it's hard to rationalise you're 100% backing of Richard Keogh with this criticism of Jonny Russell. Your description of Russell could just as easily be written about Keogh, "lack of conposure, lack of intelligence and lack of ability" all rounded off with "bang average".

    In my opinion they both contribute to the side but both consistently display their glaring weaknesses which still remain after so many years at the club.

    Excellent post!
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by Barnstaple Ram on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 8:40 pm

    Stockport Ram wrote:
    Barnstaple Ram wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:
    valakari wrote:As a matter of interest..not just me that thinks that...try every manager that he has played under!

    Apart, of course, from Clement....who didn't make him captain.

    ...and which of our last six managers is now managing in the Prem?

    so the art of being a good enough manager for the prem is solely down to who you make captain?

    Clement still picked him every week , if he is as bad as everyone makes out surely a prem class manager would have dropped him

    I blame whichever manager bought him to the club and originally made him captain,

    Your captain is your embodiment on the field of play.  You have to  trust him, and he has to have the respect of those around him.  These are two vital components in any successful side. I assume we agree on this point at least !!

    Sammon and CC were NC's biggest mistakes, but the chain of events which necessitated his swift arrival has been well documented many times.  Not an excuse, but we needed a centre half pronto before the season started and our hand was forced.

    But if as you said in another post Wembley was 2 years in the making why was he captain for those 2 years, why didn't either Clough and McLaren change captain . I don't know the answer but seems strange that several managers have kept him as such if he really is as bad a captain as you suggest
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    Re: Johnny Russell

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 10:23 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Val, it's hard to rationalise you're 100% backing of Richard Keogh with this criticism of Jonny Russell. Your description of Russell could just as easily be written about Keogh, "lack of conposure, lack of intelligence and lack of ability" all rounded off with "bang average".

    In my opinion they both contribute to the side but both consistently display their glaring weaknesses which still remain after so many years at the club.

    Neither Russell nor Keogh is unintelligent. Neither of them lack ability. But there is a big difference between the two of them.

    Russell put his head in his hands, looked distraught and blamed no-one except himself for his glaring mistake v SUFC.

    Keogh's response to his own mistakes was to wave his outstreached arms / shaking his head / shouting at teammates.

    Russell isn't suited to the job of captain as his current form doesn't guarantee him a place in the side; Keogh isn't suited to the job of captain, full stop.




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