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    What's the real problem?

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    Loughborough Ram

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    What's the real problem?

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 6:32 pm

    Right through the leagues I see clubs that hire managers we would never consider, who spend significantly less money than us, on players we would write off before they'd even held the press conference announcing their arrival. We see managers and players performing above their abilities, in teams that are playing at a higher level than the sum of their parts should ever allow, while our players rarely reach the heights that their abilities suggest they are capable of.

    This isn't a new issue, this seems to be a constant at our club. Why?
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    bramhallram

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by bramhallram on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 7:10 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Right through the leagues I see clubs that hire managers we would never consider, who spend significantly less money than us, on players we would write off before they'd even held the press conference announcing their arrival. We see managers and players performing above their abilities, in teams that are playing at a higher level than the sum of their parts should ever allow, while our players rarely reach the heights that their abilities suggest they are capable of.

    This isn't a new issue, this seems to be a constant at our club. Why?

    One reason could be that the players are all in their comfort zone, knowing nothing nasty will happen to them if they fail to deliver a decent performance.

    In his post-match interview GR looked shocked by the abject performance. He talks a good game, but he's clearly having problems getting his message(s) across.

    These players are among the top earners in this division. It's time they showed their manager and the fans that they're worth it.

    .
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 7:26 pm

    It isn't just this lot though Bram, we've suffered from these problems for many years with very few exceptions.

    Should the fans share a little of the blame? We see it all of the time, managers get no time players get crticised far more often than they get praised, we boo players off at half time if we aren't winning. Sometimes I think that we are far too hard to please, which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 7:33 pm

    Over the past few years I have had the opportunity to chat to several Derby first team players. I haven't spoken to all of them.

    Of the Derby players that I have spoken with every one has seemed genuine. When they have individually played badly they were disappointed. When they played well they were upbeat. This has included younger players, home-based players, overseas players through to international players. It includes several of the team that started on Saturday.

    From my experience they have all cared about their performances and wanted to do well. I don't get any indication that they are simply happy to take the money.
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    bramhallram

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by bramhallram on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 9:01 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:It isn't just this lot though Bram, we've suffered from these problems for many years with very few exceptions.

    Should the fans share a little of the blame? We see it all of the time, managers get no time players get crticised far more often than they get praised, we boo players off at half time if we aren't winning. Sometimes I think that we are far too hard to please, which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

    You make a good point about the craving for instant success, and the consequences of not getting it, but this is true of many aspects of the world today. Football is just a high profile example.

    I've been watching the Rams since the 1960s and I'd say that down the years Rams fans have always been quite tolerant when compared to the wrist-slashers at other clubs. Sunderland and Newcastle fans don't exactly get behind their teams when they're not doing well, and Boro fans just stay away in large numbers.

    What's changed is the obscene amount of money in the game. Fans are aware of the huge salaries footballers are paid and rightly expect to see total commitment for 90 minutes every games as a bare minimum. Doing the basics like hitting the target from ten yards wouldn't go amiss either.

    .
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by Stockport Ram on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 9:11 pm

    Rowett needs to understand the problem.

    Clement did. I understand that he bored us to death with his football philosophy, but so far under Mel's stewardship he is the only one to realise it.

    There is a constant, other than Mel, since McClaren took the handbrake off.
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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by darthdmun on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 9:13 pm

    i feel the problem we have at the moment all started when MM went into the dressing room. i know he has since held his hands up and siad he wishes he had not done that, but we have never really got back to the way we used to be before that incodent. Dunno
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    RRC
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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by RRC on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 10:46 pm

    I wonder if an example of the club's problems can be seen in last season's events re. Martin.

    The new manager Pearson sent Martin, our main goalscorer, on loan pretty quickly.
    Why? Was Martin resisting the new manager's ideas or being disruptive, and perhaps
    encouraging other players to do the same? I can't think of another reason.

    The next manager McLaren wanted Martin back and, even though that was not possible
    legally unless Fulham agreed, Martin started throwing his toys out of the pram and
    refusing to play. Was that a professional way to behave?

    So what did DCFC do? They rewarded Martin with a new, improved contract.
    Was that sensible? What message did that send to other players at DCFC and elsewhere?

    I wonder if player power is one of the problems and everything is far too cosy for them.
    There are players who've been at the club for years without producing enough during
    games to justify their places, and yet they seem to be in no danger of being moved on
    even though the squad has been too big for years.

    Obviously an abrasive atmosphere wouldn't help, but massaging their egos isn't the
    answer either. If they think they're quality players, they must produce it on the field
    and a lot more often than they have for the last three seasons.

    Maybe Mel needs to make his views known again and often, but privately this time,
    because he's not getting value for his money. If that doesn't work, he needs to break
    up the core group and replace them with players who are keener to use their ability
    to the full by working hard and trying to improve.



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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by Stockport Ram on Sun 27 Aug 2017, 11:03 pm

    RRC wrote:I wonder if an example of the club's problems can be seen in last season's events re. Martin.

    The new manager Pearson sent Martin, our main goalscorer, on loan pretty quickly.
    Why? Was Martin resisting the new manager's ideas or being disruptive, and perhaps
    encouraging other players to do the same? I can't think of another reason.

    The next manager McLaren wanted Martin back and, even though that was not possible
    legally unless Fulham agreed, Martin started throwing his toys out of the pram and
    refusing to play. Was that a professional way to behave?

    So what did DCFC do? They rewarded Martin with a new, improved contract.
    Was that sensible? What message did that send to other players at DCFC and elsewhere?

    I wonder if player power is one of the problems and everything is far too cosy for them.
    There are players who've been at the club for years without producing enough during
    games to justify their places, and yet they seem to be in no danger of being moved on
    even though the squad has been too big for years.

    Obviously an abrasive atmosphere wouldn't help, but massaging their egos isn't the
    answer either. If they think they're quality players, they must produce it on the field
    and a lot more often than they have for the last three seasons.

    Maybe Mel needs to make his views known again and often, but privately this time,
    because he's not getting value for his money. If that doesn't work, he needs to break
    up the core group and replace them with players who are keener to use their ability
    to the full by working hard and trying to improve.

    Splendid post.
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    New England Ram
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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by New England Ram on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 12:26 am

    Fans in the stands whose criticism of individual players borders on hatred does not help the problem what ever the problem is.
    Whilst the numbers have been consistently good the type of support is deteriorating rapidly and has a negative impact on the whole club imo.



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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by Ram_in_OZ on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 12:50 am

    bramhallram wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:Right through the leagues I see clubs that hire managers we would never consider, who spend significantly less money than us, on players we would write off before they'd even held the press conference announcing their arrival. We see managers and players performing above their abilities, in teams that are playing at a higher level than the sum of their parts should ever allow, while our players rarely reach the heights that their abilities suggest they are capable of.

    This isn't a new issue, this seems to be a constant at our club. Why?

    One reason could be that the players are all in their comfort zone, knowing nothing nasty will happen to them if they fail to deliver a decent performance.

    In his post-match interview GR looked shocked by the abject performance. He talks a good game, but he's clearly having problems getting his message(s) across.

    These players are among the top earners in this division. It's time they showed their manager and the fans that they're worth it.

    .
    I think Rowett knows what to do and has been clear about it. But he isn't able to replace up to 10 players easily from a financial and change perspective. It's clear we lack leadership across the park and have done so for a few years. Plus there are many other teams looking to improve and competing with us for the right type of players. I guess one constant is poor recruitment.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by Stockport Ram on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 12:52 am

    New England Ram wrote:Fans in the stands whose criticism of individual players borders on hatred does not help the problem what ever the problem is.
    Whilst the numbers have been consistently good the type of support is deteriorating rapidly and has a negative impact on the whole club imo.


    I noticed that, perhaps not for the first time, but with an unusually large degree of speen venting on Saturday.

    When in the lion's den, support is a given from me - as it should be from others.

    We can say what we passionately believe, and hope the powers that be see it as well - but in forums like this.

    During the 90 minutes, we should simply support.


    Last edited by Stockport Ram on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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    CornwallRam

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by CornwallRam on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 12:53 am

    The problem is our size. We're huge...in Derby.

    We are enormous in the city and surrounding areas. I suspect that a higher percentage of people with a DE postcode follow the Rams than any other equivalent postcode and club. We pack out our 33,000 seater stadium every week and have done for a decade. Indeed, in living memory, 41,000 people played sardines in the rickety old Baseball Ground. I'm pretty sure that we could do justice to a 40,000 capacity ground and probably a 50,000 one if we were in the PL and going for a Europa League spot. Those numbers 'prove' that we're a massive club...yet we're actually not.

    30 miles outside Derby, nobody cares about Derby County. We're a provincial club, lucky enough to have no local competition and a past inspired by Brian Clough which has ensured that several generations of Derbians have caught the bug. We can sell replica shirts in Allenton, but not Addis Ababa. When we're on TV, Chellaston is a ghost town, but Chertsey is waiting for Man U to kick off. Arsenal can sell season tickets for £2,500 but Mel has to tailor ours to the pockets of lads from Long Eaton...and they'll only come in numbers if Forest are struggling.

    Our fan base looks huge on paper and that has seduced many people into believing that we're a massive club. The fans believe it, the managers believe it and the owners believe it. Yet they're all wrong. The fans get fooled into believing that the we should be in the top ten in the Premier League and see anything not directly building towards that as failure. Managers come here expecting to wake a sleeping giant - and quickly realise that we're actually a wide awake midget in a big suit. Owners reckon they can throw a few million in and we'll emerge as the new Chelsea - after all, we get bigger gates than they did before Abramovic. Consequently, once the initial investment fails to produce the goods, they quickly reduce their investment and try to recoup their money...stifling any chance of growth.

    Mel's a little different, but look at what he has done. He's made us a Premier League club in all off-field respects. The problem is, we don't have Premier League status to back it up. We've got this fantastic academy that is the equal to Chelsea, Man U, Man City and Liverpool's. That means that it costs us the same as clubs with ten times our income. And guess what - if you were a super talented 13 year old - would you turn down Man U, Arsenal, Man C or Chelsea to come to Derby? Or would you even chose Derby over Bournemouth, Swansea or Leicester. I wonder why our expensive academy is not producing the results that it should, given the investment?

    Then there's the senior players. When DCFC come calling what do they think? 'Wow, I'm going to the club of my dreams, I'll sign first and worry about my salary afterwards'? Or maybe, 'Derby County? I think I've heard of them. They're that big club who never achieves anything. I don't really want to go there, but if they can offer me more than Sheffield Utd I'll maybe consider it.'?

    We're seen as this big club, and that comes with enormous baggage. We're always trying to punch above our weight - but the 'spare tyre' of our large fan base means that we weigh the same as  Anthony Joshua, yet have the punching power of Scott Cardle.


    Last edited by CornwallRam on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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    New England Ram
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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by New England Ram on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 2:50 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:Fans in the stands whose criticism of individual players borders on hatred does not help the problem what ever the problem is.
    Whilst the numbers have been consistently good the type of support is deteriorating rapidly and has a negative impact on the whole club imo.


    I noticed that, perhaps not for the first time, but with an unusually large degree of speen venting on Saturday.

    When in the lion's den, support is a given from me - as it should be from others.

    We can say what we passionately believe, and hope the powers that be see it as well - but in forums like this.

    During the 90 minutes, we should simply support.

    It's awful M I just don't get it.



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    mcsilks

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by mcsilks on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 4:39 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Right through the leagues I see clubs that hire managers we would never consider, who spend significantly less money than us, on players we would write off before they'd even held the press conference announcing their arrival. We see managers and players performing above their abilities, in teams that are playing at a higher level than the sum of their parts should ever allow, while our players rarely reach the heights that their abilities suggest they are capable of.

    This isn't a new issue, this seems to be a constant at our club. Why?


    I've given this a great deal of thought over the last few seasons and I too am bewildered.

    Look at Neil Warnock for example. A manager to whom if anyone had suggested should take over lets say Paul Clement when he was giving his marching orders; would have been laughed at and ridiculed. But he is proving again that at this level, he consistently achieves. If he were to come to Derby however, he would not achieve. Why? Because this is DCFC and we do not achieve for reasons unknown.

    Two examples off the top of my head.
    1. Lee Grant. Pretty average at Derby. Very good at Burnley. Second spell, very average at Derby and loses his place. Leaves Derby for the Premiership and is excellent playing at the top level.

    2. Shackell. Fantastic with Barnsley. Average at Derby. Fantastic at Burnley. Average at Derby.

    I could be here all night making a list of players that have performed well below their best as soon as they don the black and white of Derby. There are one or two exceptions....Chris Martin for example who have had some of their best spells while at Derby but in recent years, they are few and far between.

    I wish there was an answer to the problem but it just seems that failure and Derby County go hand in hand. Even when we have had a whiff of possible joy in recent years, it was then tinged (to put it nicely) in failure by that season in the Premiership.

    My guess is that Gary Rowett will be another manager that has come to Derby with a decent reputation and leaves the club with his reputation in tatters after two failed promotion attempts towards the end of next season.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 8:25 am

    There are also players like Butterfield. Brilliant at Huddersfield. Came to Derby and replicated that form. Then he went backwards, both metaphorically and literally. Where did the good player go? Can we get him back?

    He seems to have bought in to Clement's possession for possession's sake philosophy and seems stuck in the groove. How do we pull him out?

    Maybe GR should sit him down and show him some video of his play at Huddersfield and his early days here. Then show him video of his play here from last season or this. That will show him what is required from him. Hopefully he can deliver....... IF he gets shown the difference.


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    old ewe

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by old ewe on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 2:10 pm

    I agree that players seem to go backward when they come to Derby. WE have a core squad that is used to failure. It needs to be broken up for everyone's sake. More recent acquisitions seem to have become tainted.Gary seems to have the same problem as Nigel. He has to reduce the squad and the wages bill. But the players that need to go were for the most part overly expensive buys on big wages who are not playing to their potential. These 3 factors make them very unattractive buys to other clubs. Nigel said he spent most of the money available to him getting rid of such players./ paying up contracts / etc. When he had sorted this and could have moved on he was sacked.
    Gary is having difficulties recouping monies spent. Mel should take his share of the responsibility .He sanctioned the fees. He has made considerable gains on Hendrick, Ince and Hughes. It is time for him to take the shackles off Gary so he can shift these players at a loss., get them out of the club , reduce the overall numbers, free up wages and bring in new faces with the mentality Gary is after.
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    CornwallRam

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by CornwallRam on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 2:36 pm

    old ewe wrote:I agree that players seem to go backward when they come to Derby. WE have a core squad that is used to failure. It needs to be broken up for everyone's sake. More recent acquisitions seem to have become tainted.Gary seems to have the same problem as Nigel. He has to reduce the squad and the wages bill. But the players that need to go were for the most part overly expensive buys on big wages who are not  playing to their potential. These 3 factors make them very unattractive buys to other clubs. Nigel said he spent most of the money available to him getting rid of such players./ paying up contracts / etc. When he had sorted this  and could have moved on he was sacked.  
    Gary is having difficulties recouping monies spent. Mel should take his share of the responsibility .He sanctioned the fees. He has made considerable gains on Hendrick, Ince and Hughes. It is time for him to take the shackles off Gary so he can shift these players  at a loss., get them out of the club , reduce the overall numbers, free up wages and  bring in new faces with the mentality Gary is after.

    Unfortunately, that's not an option with FFP. Even if Mel was happy to write off £20m in paying off players and throw in another £10m for Rowett to replace them with better, we'd just breach FFP and be hit with sanctions - which can now include a points deduction, a fine and a transfer embargo.

    There simply isn't a short term fix available for this. We've got to just be patient and wait for the overpaid wasters to run their contracts down and leave.
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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by Jackal on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 3:00 pm

    CornwallRam wrote:
    old ewe wrote:I agree that players seem to go backward when they come to Derby. WE have a core squad that is used to failure. It needs to be broken up for everyone's sake. More recent acquisitions seem to have become tainted.Gary seems to have the same problem as Nigel. He has to reduce the squad and the wages bill. But the players that need to go were for the most part overly expensive buys on big wages who are not  playing to their potential. These 3 factors make them very unattractive buys to other clubs. Nigel said he spent most of the money available to him getting rid of such players./ paying up contracts / etc. When he had sorted this  and could have moved on he was sacked.  
    Gary is having difficulties recouping monies spent. Mel should take his share of the responsibility .He sanctioned the fees. He has made considerable gains on Hendrick, Ince and Hughes. It is time for him to take the shackles off Gary so he can shift these players  at a loss., get them out of the club , reduce the overall numbers, free up wages and  bring in new faces with the mentality Gary is after.

    Unfortunately, that's not an option with FFP. Even if Mel was happy to write off £20m in paying off players and throw in another £10m for Rowett to replace them with better, we'd just breach FFP and be hit with sanctions - which can now include a points deduction, a fine and a transfer embargo.

    There simply isn't a short term fix available for this. We've got to just be patient and wait for the overpaid wasters to run their contracts down and leave.
    It's a shame Sheff Wed, Burton and more recently Wigan are no longer happy to take our flops off our hands.

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by chicken on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 4:17 pm

    We will have to wait until next season for any real progress as I believe that there are around 10 players out of contract then.
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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by old ewe on Mon 28 Aug 2017, 6:29 pm

    Those who realise they are not going to play might make their own arrangements to go in January ??
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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by rob on Tue 29 Aug 2017, 9:41 am

    I normally wait until at least September before writing the season off - :-)

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by Angus1 on Wed 30 Aug 2017, 9:07 am

    New England Ram wrote:Fans in the stands whose criticism of individual players borders on hatred does not help the problem what ever the problem is.
    Whilst the numbers have been consistently good the type of support is deteriorating rapidly and has a negative impact on the whole club imo.

    I think you are spot on with that, if we got the type of backing Sheffield United got on Saturday right from the off at PP it would help the players. Too many because we have spent some money in recent times and our published attendances are high expect success and moan like hell if we haven't created any chances in 5 minutes. Even in good times games normally start off tight at pro level, little patience, lot's of moaning.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 30 Aug 2017, 11:22 am

    Angus1 wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:Fans in the stands whose criticism of individual players borders on hatred does not help the problem what ever the problem is.
    Whilst the numbers have been consistently good the type of support is deteriorating rapidly and has a negative impact on the whole club imo.

    I think you are spot on with that, if we got the type of backing Sheffield United got on Saturday right from the off at PP it would help the players. Too many because we have spent some money in recent times and our published attendances are high expect success and moan like hell if we haven't created any chances in 5 minutes. Even in good times games normally start off tight at pro level, little patience, lot's of moaning.

    Supporters should do just that.... support. Unrest when they see the right things not getting done is a human response. Slow, slow, slower, slower, slow football. Lack of effort. No running off the ball. No pressing. Can all be forgiven individually but when you see all of them in the opening 10 minutes you do wonder what happened to the tactics GR gave them.

    I personally do not boo but I have been known to shout "get into em", "close em dahn", "dunt gi em space", "pass the fishcaking thing", "mark yer man", "shoot" and other wise words plus the odd WTF?

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    Re: What's the real problem?

    Post by New England Ram on Wed 30 Aug 2017, 12:53 pm

    MadAmster wrote:
    Angus1 wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:Fans in the stands whose criticism of individual players borders on hatred does not help the problem what ever the problem is.
    Whilst the numbers have been consistently good the type of support is deteriorating rapidly and has a negative impact on the whole club imo.

    I think you are spot on with that, if we got the type of backing Sheffield United got on Saturday right from the off at PP it would help the players. Too many because we have spent some money in recent times and our published attendances are high expect success and moan like hell if we haven't created any chances in 5 minutes. Even in good times games normally start off tight at pro level, little patience, lot's of moaning.

    Supporters should do just that.... support. Unrest when they see the right things not getting done is a human response. Slow, slow, slower, slower, slow football. Lack of effort. No running off the ball. No pressing. Can all be forgiven individually but when you see all of them in the opening 10 minutes you do wonder what happened to the tactics GR gave them.

    I personally do not boo but I have been known to shout "get into em", "close em dahn", "dunt gi em space", "pass the fishcaking thing", "mark yer man", "shoot" and other wise words plus the odd WTF?


    I imagine we all moan to ourselves during particularly poor performances Ammy.
    And sometimes yell it out but booing a team off at ht in the second half game of he season.
    And telling your own players to fu** off you c***.
    I know there have always been moaners and complainers there were when we were the best team in England.
    But the hatred and intolerance that spews out now is frightening.
    I just don't get some people anymore big picture i don't get how anyone can listen to Rowett speak and is not prepared to give this bloke time ( and it's going to take time) to put his own mark on a team that still needs at least three new components to make us competitive again.




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    Re: What's the real problem?

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      Current date/time is Mon 20 Nov 2017, 2:11 am