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    Gone Dutch

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    Jackal

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Jackal on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 9:12 pm

    New England Ram wrote:
    Jackal wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:I wonder whether some of the Premiersh*t big boys would have these kind of problems, both clubs and the player are now in a situation where nobody benefits.
    Leicester have been having problems with the transfer of Adrien Silva from Sporting Lisbon. Not just us that have problems with the transfer deadline but not surprising that a transfer of our's is affected - this is also part of the Derby Way. On a side note, do clubs REALLY HAVE to leave it until the dying moments of the window to get deals done!?! Even if they got things done by teatime of the final day they could all breathe a little easier. Seems to me like clubs collectively strive to make life difficult for themselves.

    Yeah keep an eye on the Fester situation cause if money talks and they somehow push that through it's stamp our feet time.
    If they allowed show any club leniency in these matters it will set a precedent for other appeals in future and make a mockery of the purpose of the window. I propose that in future they close the loan window a day later so that any deal that doesn't get over the line in time could then be changed into a loan until January, with the proviso that a permanent deal must happen then.
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    ShardlowSheep

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by ShardlowSheep on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 9:44 pm

    This leaves us woefully short of Central midfielders and could cost us dearly this season.
    Might not be as bad if Thorne gets fit but him staying fit for long appears unlikely
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by SawleyRam on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 10:58 pm

    The one question I would ask is why would the EFL ratify the transfer then rescind   days later?

    Why not say no to start with? Outside influences appear to be the driving factor here.
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by SawleyRam on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:05 pm

    Jackal wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:
    Jackal wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:I wonder whether some of the Premiersh*t big boys would have these kind of problems, both clubs and the player are now in a situation where nobody benefits.
    Leicester have been having problems with the transfer of Adrien Silva from Sporting Lisbon. Not just us that have problems with the transfer deadline but not surprising that a transfer of our's is affected - this is also part of the Derby Way. On a side note, do clubs REALLY HAVE to leave it until the dying moments of the window to get deals done!?! Even if they got things done by teatime of the final day they could all breathe a little easier. Seems to me like clubs collectively strive to make life difficult for themselves.

    Yeah keep an eye on the Fester situation cause if money talks and they somehow push that through it's stamp our feet time.
    If they allowed show any club leniency in these matters it will set a precedent for other appeals in future and make a mockery of the purpose of the window. I propose that in future they close the loan window a day later so that any deal that doesn't get over the line in time could then be changed into a loan until January, with the proviso that a permanent deal must happen then.

    Somebody might be able to to help me out here but did the powers that be allow in the last transfer window a signing that was far too late. Premiership of course !!!!
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    Jackal

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Jackal on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:08 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:The one question I would ask is why would the EFL ratify the transfer then rescind   days later?

    Why not say no to start with? Outside influences appear to be the driving factor here.
    Did the EFL actually ratify the deal in the first place, or was it just that both clubs thought they'd submitted enough of the relevant paperwork in time?
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by SawleyRam on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:56 pm

    Jackal wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:The one question I would ask is why would the EFL ratify the transfer then rescind   days later?

    Why not say no to start with? Outside influences appear to be the driving factor here.
    Did the EFL actually ratify the deal in the first place, or was it just that both clubs thought they'd submitted enough of the relevant paperwork in time?

    According to reports he was a ratified player by the EFL standards then they appeared to change their minds. As with most of us a I think a total mess up by the EFL has ended with a problem that blamed the clubs involved in order to shift the blame

    So wrong, poor stewardship of a multi-pound industry.
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by SawleyRam on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 12:13 am

    Unashamedly nicked from a Birmingham twitter account:

    HR: Hi is that the Football League?

    FL: How can we help Harry?

    HR: I shouldn't have sold Kieftenbeld

    FL: Consider it blocked

    HR: KRO (Keep Right On)

    Sad but maybe true
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    MadAmster

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 8:46 am

    So, at the moment, we don't have a player we want. Brum have a player they don't want. Kieftenbeld is, probably, unlikely to get much game time. 3 unhappy parties.

    Rule are rules and you have to abide them BUT, I have always gone on the premise that rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

    My lad has a similar idea on life and came up with the following gem of an idea. Derby speak to Brum and come to the conclusion that my opening paragraph is true. They also agree that they would like the situation to be resolved asap with MB becoming a Derby player again. How do you do that?

    How's about this? MB does a Neymar. He buys out his contract for however much we paid for him (somewhere between 500K and 600K). He gets a signing on bonus of 800K (he'd have to pay tax on the bonus) and comes to us as a free agent.

    It would mean we would have to pay more for him than in the original deal but it would, IMO, still be a very good deal.
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    valakari

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by valakari on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 9:49 am

    Ok simplify it more. The deal was £300k. Get him to pay off for same figure as we give him in bonus..to pay him back...simples...they want him gone, he wants to go..and we want him!...
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    bramhallram

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by bramhallram on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 10:12 am

    SawleyRam wrote:The one question I would ask is why would the EFL ratify the transfer then rescind   days later?

    Why not say no to start with? Outside influences appear to be the driving factor here.

    Possibly, but incompetence may also be involved. As with many things in life, if you leave things to the last minute don't be surprised if some important detail gets overlooked.

    Despite the fact that both the clubs and the player are happy for the deal to go ahead, if you give some jobsworth the chance to heave an industrial size spanner into the works you're inviting trouble.

    I'd be interested to hear MM's thoughts on the subject.

    .
    .
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    Ram78

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Ram78 on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 10:37 am

    Is this where we are missing a Glick/Rush type person??
    Embarrassing saga and you have to feel for the player, interesting how much game time he gets at Brum now and how/if he plays vs us
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    MadAmster

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:02 am

    valakari wrote:Ok simplify it more. The deal was £300k. Get him to pay off for same figure as we give him in bonus..to pay him back...simples...they want him gone, he wants to go..and we want him!...

    That is what I suggested, although we have used different figures. Using your figure of 300K, if he paid that and we paid him 300K that would cost him 150K in Income Tax. You expect him to lose 150K because someone else cocked up?

    Is that really going to happen?
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    New England Ram
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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by New England Ram on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:09 am

    SawleyRam wrote:
    Jackal wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:
    Jackal wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:I wonder whether some of the Premiersh*t big boys would have these kind of problems, both clubs and the player are now in a situation where nobody benefits.
    Leicester have been having problems with the transfer of Adrien Silva from Sporting Lisbon. Not just us that have problems with the transfer deadline but not surprising that a transfer of our's is affected - this is also part of the Derby Way. On a side note, do clubs REALLY HAVE to leave it until the dying moments of the window to get deals done!?! Even if they got things done by teatime of the final day they could all breathe a little easier. Seems to me like clubs collectively strive to make life difficult for themselves.

    Yeah keep an eye on the Fester situation cause if money talks and they somehow push that through it's stamp our feet time.
    If they allowed show any club leniency in these matters it will set a precedent for other appeals in future and make a mockery of the purpose of the window. I propose that in future they close the loan window a day later so that any deal that doesn't get over the line in time could then be changed into a loan until January, with the proviso that a permanent deal must happen then.

    Somebody might be able to to help me out here but did the powers that be allow in the last transfer window a signing that was far too late. Premiership of course !!!!

    Personally i wish they would board the fu**ing window up completely and go back to the way it was before.



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    CornwallRam

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by CornwallRam on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:14 am

    MadAmster wrote:
    valakari wrote:Ok simplify it more. The deal was £300k. Get him to pay off for same figure as we give him in bonus..to pay him back...simples...they want him gone, he wants to go..and we want him!...

    That is what I suggested, although we have used different figures. Using your figure of 300K, if he paid that and we paid him 300K that would cost him 150K in Income Tax. You expect him to lose 150K because someone else cocked up?

    Is that really going to happen?

    My understanding is that to be counted as a free agent a player has to be released before the transfer window closes, so that wouldn't work.
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    thatguyfromderby

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by thatguyfromderby on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:49 am

    Premier League has voted for the window to close before the season starts in 2018. Will the EFL follow?
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    old ewe

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by old ewe on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 12:30 pm

    EFL season starts before Prem. Does that mean a staggered closure? Throw in the foreign dates and it all gets very confusing. Especially since you can go on selling where the window is still open but not buy.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 2:32 pm

    Stockport Ram wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:I wonder whether this would have happened if we had someone, like, say, Sam Rush in charge of transfers? Just sayin.... Whistle


    Just imagine how happy we'd now be if we hadn't have been competent enough to get the BJ and Butterfield signings across the line......   just sayin'   Whistle

    My point exactly stocky, he got those two done on deadline day for the manager.

    My point exactly Loughie - almost to a man (and woman), we wish he hadn't.
    dancer

    So I guess you're saying that it's best to fail to secure your managers transfer targets in case they're sh*t.

    It's a strange business model but I suppose it could work.
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    valakari

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by valakari on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 5:15 pm

    CornwallRam wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:
    valakari wrote:Ok simplify it more. The deal was £300k. Get him to pay off for same figure as we give him in bonus..to pay him back...simples...they want him gone, he wants to go..and we want him!...

    That is what I suggested, although we have used different figures. Using your figure of 300K, if he paid that and we paid him 300K that would cost him 150K in Income Tax. You expect him to lose 150K because someone else cocked up?

    Is that really going to happen?

    My understanding is that to be counted as a free agent a player has to be released before the transfer window closes, so that wouldn't work.
    can't be right. If he is without contract...he is a free agent....then he can sign for who he likes...
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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 5:19 pm

    Yes, this ought to be correct unless the EFL has rules that override it - which I also doubt.
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    thatguyfromderby

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by thatguyfromderby on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 5:54 pm

    I'm so gutted this deal fell through. Not the silky player that will unlock a defence but a stable functional player that we desperately need at the back.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Stockport Ram on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 6:28 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:
    Loughborough Ram wrote:I wonder whether this would have happened if we had someone, like, say, Sam Rush in charge of transfers? Just sayin.... Whistle


    Just imagine how happy we'd now be if we hadn't have been competent enough to get the BJ and Butterfield signings across the line......   just sayin'   Whistle

    My point exactly stocky, he got those two done on deadline day for the manager.

    My point exactly Loughie - almost to a man (and woman), we wish he hadn't.
    dancer

    So I guess you're saying that it's best to fail to secure your managers transfer targets in case they're sh*t.

    It's a strange business model but I suppose it could work.

     Funnily enough, No.  I'm saying I'd rather have no one than Rush, because of the state he left us in.  Actually, I'll refine that - securing them at any cost is pointless - I could do that. His job was to secure them at the best possible price.

    In the two "rushed"  (ahem) deals we are referring to, all Rush did was order take - if that was all he was paid to do, then why was he so amazingly well paid?

    My belief is that he was far more involved "in the round", hence his trusted status by Mel, but as we have both said on more than one occasion we will never know.


    All we can go on is that, in a vastly inflated market, DCFC have secured Huddlestone, Wisdom and Davies for less than SR secured Johnson.

    I'd say something didn't add up, but hey, who knows?
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 10:43 pm

    Johnson at around £6m looked a great deal today.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Stockport Ram on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:09 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Johnson at around £6m looked a great deal today.

    Indeed he did !

    He has great ability, but a lack of football intelligence.

    Huddlestone is a far better player, at less than half the cost.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:21 pm

    I'm pretty sure that the options were a lot more limited when we bought Johnson, and I would guess that we would have signed Huddlestone at half the cost had he been available when Bryson and Hughes both suffered long term injuries at Bolton,
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Gone Dutch

    Post by Stockport Ram on Sat 09 Sep 2017, 8:49 am

    You would have hoped so, LR.

    It was a major coup to even get Johnson in one sense. He was magnificent for Norwich in the 2-2 at Pride Park the previous season, and for him to come down a division (IIRC) was a surprise to me, especially as I believe he may have been their captain, although I'm not 100% sure on that.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I had spoken to an avid Leeds fan who warned me that he will blow hot and cold, although more prolonged winter periods than sunny days - I would suggest that our experience of him so far bears that our perfectly.

    The caveat I have in the deal is that SR was told to get him, whatever the cost. In the words of Yosser Hughes, I can do that.

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