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    Catalunya troubles and football

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    KeoghKeogh

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    Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Sat 23 Sep 2017, 1:13 pm

    Against the backdrop of the actions of the Spanish government, tonight's 'Catalan Derby', Girona v Barcelona game is likely to be of interest to 'students of football and politics'. Expect to see a few more estelada senyeras than the couple of yellow and red stripes and star Catalan independence flags that the Celtic fans have on show v Rangers just now.

    Unless the Spanish government has banned the independence flags in Spain, that is!

    It has been widely reported that the Spanish government has arranged the removal of independence posters, imprisoning of Catalan political leaders, seizing of voting papers and freezing assets of the Catalan semi-automous government over the past few days.

    This has led to mass protest in Barcelona and Catalunya as well as shows of support across Spain - the latter being very rare, given the general opposition to Catalan independence in most other (non Catalan and non- Basque) areas of the country.

    All of which leads to an interesting football game tonight.
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Sun 24 Sep 2017, 9:09 am

    There are currently reports and photos of water cannon vehicles en route to Barcelona and National police vehicles being driven off ships in Barcelona harbour. It is reported that the national police have taken over policing from the local police in Barcelona until 1st October when the referendum is scheduled to take place. The Catalan press report that demonstartions have been largely peaceful albeit with photos of Catalan protesters clashing with national police in Barcelona and a large tractor blockade of the motorway in Lleida. It would seem that there will be a difficult week ahead.
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Sat 30 Sep 2017, 9:06 pm

    The polling day for the vote of indepence is tomorrow (Sunday) in Catalunya. Spanish police are reported to be trying to close polling stations in Catalunya, many of which are in schools. Many schools are currently occupied by Catalans seeking to prevent the police from closing the polling stations. There are reports of emergency service trucks ariving in Catalunya from the Basque country to support the pro-independence Catalans in keeping the polling stations open.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by Stockport Ram on Sat 30 Sep 2017, 10:00 pm

    My first year at University was less than a decade after Franco died - we have to remember that Spain is a fledgling democracy and it is only two generations since inprisonment of those not following the official line was commonplace.

    I hope that things run smoothly but I fear the worst.
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Sun 01 Oct 2017, 12:24 pm

    Today is vote day in Catalunya - well, in parts of Catalunya. Whilst the vote has proceeded safely in some areas so far, there is considerable tension between the national police and Catalans in some areas - including firing of rubber bullets in Barcelona. La Liga today includes Barcelona v Las Palmas at Camp Nou, Barcelona. It is reported that Las Palmas have arranged for their shirts to have the Spanish flag embroidered onto them as a sign of support for Spain. The Barcelona board were due to have lunch with members of the Las Palmas board -it is reported that the Barcelona board have cancelled the meal in response to the action of Las Palmas. If it goes ahead later this afternoon, the game is likely to be of historic significance. Hopefully it will be peaceful.
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    cmccram

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by cmccram on Sun 01 Oct 2017, 8:43 pm

    I feel the response of the Spanish government, added to the actions of the police and national guard mean this "referendum" is only likely to go one way. The game between Barca and Las Palmas ended up being played in a very empty Nou Camp, a very eerie sight. The behaviour of those in power has been reprehensible. What has been a mainly peaceful movement by the catalan people has seen a huge over reaction and very heavy handed response. All that was needed was to say fine have a vote but legally it will mean nothing. All I can imagine will happen now it the catalan people will push harder for independence and more right wing elements similar to the basque ETA may surface to destabilise Spain as a whole. I've visited Barcelona a few times and have loved every visit. Whilst it has had some issues such a pickpocketing being rife, it has so much to see, do and experience. I hope the Spanish government haven't lit a small fire that may go incendiary!
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Sun 01 Oct 2017, 9:07 pm

    It's difficult to see a way back now. There are reports of tear gas having been used by the national police in a town near to Girona as well as the upsetting images that have been carried by the world's media. Even if the Spanish national police withdraw now that the ballots are closed, the impact will remain. There are images of Catalan fire and Mossos (Catalan police) standing with the voters. If there is a majority, the Catalan govenment are likely to declare independence mid-week (potentially Wednesday). The Spanish PM has declared that there was no referendum. Let's hope that this ends well - but it's very hard to see how this will be achieved.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by MadAmster on Sun 01 Oct 2017, 9:28 pm

    Same old, same old. Somebody, at some time in the past dreamt up borders and expected everybody to be happy about it.

    Look at all the independence movements around Europe. In the UK alone we have the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Yorkshire and Cornwall among others. The Flemish want to get rid of the Walloon as the Flemish minority generate most of the wealth and believe they could have a far higher standard of living if they didn't have to subsidise the Walloon. Catalonia feels the same about Spain and the majority of Catalonians never wanted to be Spanish in the first place.

    More, in alphabetical order are the Greeks of Northern Epirus in Albania, the Armenians of the Artsakh region of Azerbaijan, Republika Srpska, Moravia in the Czech republic, Bornholm in Denmark and also the Faroe Islands from Denmark....... read the list for yourself at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

    Europe isn't one big happy family as the EU would have us believe. More and more power being given to Brussels is the way they think they can CONTROL everybody and it is about control and power. What it isn't is in the best interests of the people. Just like the entire political system is designed to keep the ric, rich. Those in power in power and the rest of us struggling to pay for it.

    The whole system, political, financial and the complete banking system needs major surgery to make it fairer for "ordinary folk".

    Unfortunately, the banks and the political elite will do their damnedest to ensure it doesn't happen.
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    rayebbram1

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by rayebbram1 on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:09 am

    Madamster

    I know we are of similar age and background and both of us come from 'working class' areas of Burton, but I cannot fathom why you are so anti establishment and anti capititalism.

    We have both had a good education, good employers and worked hard for our 'middle class' lifestyle. The opportunities are there for everyone, we weren't special or gifted but we made the most of what we had and were well rewarded.

    The system isn't perfect, but what is the alternative, communism?

    Under that dictataship regime you would certainly not be living in your own house in a another country and being able to post polictical views on any forum.

    Enjoy your freedom and be thankfull that free enterprise puts us in the top 3% of the worlds wealthiest citizens.





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    MadAmster

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:03 pm

    Hi Ray, to me, it's all about keeping things in perspective and a bit on the fair side. With international corporations getting bigger and bigger through mergers and takeovers, each merger/TO leads to staff being made redundant and shareholders getting bigger dividends. There are, admittedly, more people in work and less out of it than there have been for a long time but many of those are part time and/or low paid and/or zero hour contracts.

    Take the mega rich, like George Soros, simply through strategic buying and selling of currency, he has brought Portugal and more recently Indonesia to the brink simply because he didn't like what was happening there, politically. Giving one man that amount of power and leverage over an entire country is abhorrent to me.

    The EU. Total waste as far as I am concerned. MEPs getting more in expenses that they don't have to justify than you and I receive in pensions. Waste of our tax money. Since Maastricht in 1992, when the original free trade area was superceded by the EU, one of the Laws was annual auditing of the EU. It has never happened because billions go missing each year and they have no idea where it has gone. Therefore they don't submit accounts for auditung purposes.

    The 3% maximum overspend on GDP that countries are allowed. By EU Law, exceeding it brings fines. Some countries have been fined for exceeding the 3%. France have done it for years. When asked why France has bever been fined for this, Juncker's answer was "Because they are the French". One rule for some, another for others. I would like to go back to 1991 and the EEC.

    Companies have lost their "humanity". Apply for a job and 90% of the time you don't even get an acknowledgement. Get an interview and most don't bother telling you why you didn't get the job. All of this means they don't need as many Human Resource staf and ups profit and dividends.

    Companies like Ryanair. They give a newly qualified pilot an interview. The pilot, already deep in debt to pay for the 2 year training course has to pay his flight to Dublin, his hotel and 300 for the Simulator session that is part of the process. You then don't get the job and the email says they are too busy to tell you why and don't write, phone or email asking as they won't tell you and that would see you never get employed by them again. Should you be lucky enough to get the job, they expect you to set up an Irish Ltd which costs money, pay the €29,950 the 737 type rating costs, they give you a 0 hour contract, you only get paid for hours in the air (€20 an hour), pay for your own hotel if there is a stopover, your bottle of water during the flight AND for the first 6 months you don't get paid at all as they view that as training. They aren't the only company or branch that treats their staff so poorly but it is a good example of what is, IMO, wrong.

    It wasn't this hard when we were younger.

    I would like People and Planet before Profit. That may make me old fashioned or a dinosaur but all I see in both Politics and the business area is more and more control by fewer and fewer people. I think we need to reverse that trend.

    That's it in a nutshell. Common sense and common decency aren't as common as I would like to see. All things in moderation and, at the moment, they are not.
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    rob

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by rob on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 3:45 pm

    totally agree amster - according to Comrade Corbyn I am rich - but I also constantly work/travel 80-90 hours a week and for the million things I do right I get hammered for the 1 I do wrong.

    The dystopia of big companies being bigger than governments has been here for a while and people in power who are career politicians who do it for a while before taking a directorship at said companies.

    The disparity between even the upper working class (I am not middle class as I have never owned a business) and the richest is widening all the time and the money top executives award themselves (by being on each others remuneration committess) has long gone beyond the obscene.

    Communism is not the answer but I feel unfettered capitalism may be running out of steam....

    Maybe the human race has "peaked" - at least in the west - first generation expected to be poorer than the previous - life expectancy increases maxing out....

    glad I am an old git and wont see the terminal decline......

    rise of the machines....
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by Stockport Ram on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 6:42 pm

    Interestingly for this anorak, the Catalan situation has made me revisit Orwell and Huxley.

    MA's view is pretty much exactly the same as mine, except that I've no chance of expressing it so eloquently.

    There is a huge difference IMHO between Communism and Democratic Socialism, but fake right wing agendas have tarred them with the same brush since (and to some extent before) the Winter of Discontent, and sadly most of the unwashed (and quite a few of the well groomed) continue to swallow it whole.

    How can a system which allows one man to force the UK govt to increase base rate from 10, to 12, to 15% in the same day, costing average Joe millions (not to mention the UK reserves) be right?

    Clause IV has been consistently villified as if it meant everyone had exactly the same - that's not how I see it. It redistributes wealth from the obscenely rich to make the gap smaller, but leaves room for ambition and self betterment to be rewarded, otherwise there would be no point.


    "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of productiondistribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.[3]

    That doesn't say everyone should get the same - it says the gap should be far smaller than it is today.
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:34 pm

    Catalunya-wise it is reported that there was a major shift on Sunday.

    Whereas the views regarding independence from Spain were reportedly mixed / represented a broad spectrum of opinion, the actions of the national police are reported to have led to a shift of opinion.

    It is said that the Catalans were surprised by 2 things; the violence from the national police and the locations of the polling stations that were chosen by the police for the violence.

    In many cases the polling stations were located in middle class /more affluent parts of Catalunya. The combination of police violence - and the locations has been reportedly intepreted by some Catalans as a particularly sinister act by the Spanish government calculated to frighten Catalans. Some Catalans are reported as having described it as cowardly.

    The national 'strike' in Catalunya has been reported to be widespread. It is reported that its purpose was to show opposition to the actions of the police. It is also reported that some have said that it is a show of force by the Catalan government - in advance of what may follow...

    ...which is that the Catalan parliament is reportedly due to meet tomorrow with a declaration being likely.

    It seems likely that any declaration from the Catalan parliament may reflect the question posed in the ballot and speak of independence from Spain / the creation of a Catalan republic.

    Given his response so far, it is said that PM Rajoy may respond by removing the autonomous powers held by the Catalan government and installing direct rule from the national government in Madrid. This may also result in the onging prescence of the national police in the region. Given the actions of the police on Sunday, Rajoy's support for their actions, the extent of the Catalan 'strike' today, the reported outcome of the referendum... and the long memories of Catalans... it has been reported that the removal of powers from the Catalan parliament would carry very significant risk indeed.

    and back to football and politics. Spain will play their World Cup qualifiers in Alicante v Albania on Friday. Depending on the response of the crowd and Spanish media to the players selected by Spain (in particular, Gerard Pique), the game could become significant in both regards (football and politics).



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    MadAmster

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 03 Oct 2017, 8:40 pm

    To further explain. I am not anti capitalist, nor do I advocate communism.

    Capitalism with a social conscience is fine.

    Socialism funded by moderate capitalism is fine.

    100 years ago, the employers ruled the roost. By the 70s the unions ruled. The true place is in the middle but now the pendulum has swung back in favour of the bosses.

    Moderation being the keyword.
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 5:50 am

    As expected, the president of the semi-automonous region of Catalunya declared independence during yesterday's parliametary session - with an immediate pause to allow for discussions to take place with the Spanish government.

    It will be interesting to see how the Spanish government respond.

    As anticipated, Gerard Pique was subject to abuse from many in the Alicante crowd during Spain's final home qualifier on Friday.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by Stockport Ram on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 7:46 am

    Its a dreadful situation but symptomatic of a crumbling European Union which now seems inexorable, due to the greed and non physical but no less aggressive stance of its major economic players.


    They failed to win by the armalite, and now it seems are failing all over Europe through the ballot box.


    IMHO, not a moment too soon.
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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 11 Oct 2017, 8:10 am

    Surely you aren't suggesting that the EEC/EU has, from the start, been run for and by the French and Germans with the agenda of them ruling Europe, are you?

    ............... you might be on to something there. Both my parents were of that opinion back in the 70s and 80s and that is my opinion too.

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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Fri 13 Oct 2017, 10:43 pm

    The latest on this is that the Spanish government have given the Catalan parliament 8 days in which to reverse the threat of independence. If not, the Spanish government will invoke powers to remove the Catalan parliament's autonomy. If taken, that would not be well recived in Barcelona and wider Catalunya. The deadline will be midweek next week. There's not much sign of the dialogue that the Catalan parliamentary leaders asked for from Rajoy. It's not easy to see a happy ending to this one right now.
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    KeoghKeogh

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Fri 20 Oct 2017, 6:14 pm

    Spain are expected to invoke Article 155 tomorrow (Saturday). This will result in the removal of powers of the Catalan government by the Madrid government and the direct intervention of the Spain government. The date of implementation and nature of the action may become apparent tomorrow.

    Barcelona are due to play Malaga tomorrow (Saturday) night at the Camp Nou. The traditional independence chants after 17 minute and 14 seconds of the start of each half may well have a different feel to them given what is likely to have happened earlier in the day.

    worrying times
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    MadAmster

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    Re: Catalunya troubles and football

    Post by MadAmster on Sat 21 Oct 2017, 9:35 am

    The Dutch press is speculating that the Spanish government will dissolve the Catalonian Parliament and hold new elections in the hope that they produce a non-separatist government in Catalonia.

    I would suggest that this action will produce quite the opposite.

    Take the Brexit vote in the UK, for instance, not many people thought Brexit would win the vote.

    Take Mayhem's calling an early election to give her a bigger majority to ease HER chosen path to, quite likely, a hard Brexit.

    Two Tory gambles that backfired. I think this Spanish gamble will produce a similar result.

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