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    James McLean

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    bramhallram

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    James McLean

    Post by bramhallram on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 8:01 pm

    I've heard we're interested in taking James McLean on loan as cover for Johnson.

    If true it seems like a good move.

    .
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    outsider

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by outsider on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 8:38 pm

    No thanks
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Stockport Ram on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 9:47 pm

    I sincerely hope not.

    Anyone who refuses to wear a poppy , no matter how much he might visit childrens hospitals on Christmas morning and give out presents, and no matter how nice a guy he may be, is not welcomed by me as a representative of the club I support.
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    valakari

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by valakari on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 11:07 pm

    Whilst I agree with the sentiment..he is a good player and would improve the team...and I want promotion!
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    mcsilks

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by mcsilks on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 12:09 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:I sincerely hope not.

    Anyone who refuses to wear a poppy , no matter how much he might visit childrens hospitals on Christmas morning and give out presents, and no matter how nice a guy he may be, is not welcomed by me as a representative of the club I support.


    McLeans letter stating the reasons why he didn't wear the poppy:

    Dear Mr Whelan,

    I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

    I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

    I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

    I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this.

    But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

    For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different.

    Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

    Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

    It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

    I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

    I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

    I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons. As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.





    Now I was always brought up to respect the beliefs of others and I fully respect his feelings for not wearing a poppy.

    Not one of us here knows what is was like growing up in the shadow of the 'Bloody Sunday massacre' and if I was told by others that I should wear something to remember something I was trying to forget, then I would likely feel the same as he does.

    I'm sorry for you Stockport Ram that you feel everyone has to jump on the poppy bandwagon irrespective of their beliefs.

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 7:57 am

    Purely on ability he would be a fantastic signing.

    On his religious leanings, for once, I don't really have an opinion.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by outsider on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 8:03 am

    I'm not fan of McLean is down to football reasons not the poppy.

    The poppy should be a voluntary choice not forced to wear. JM reasons are his choice and to a point I understand his reasons.

    The Poppy was originally for the world wars, not for every conflict we been dragged into since.

    I wear my poppy as a choice and respect for our fallen but for remeberance day


    As for JM that last minutes goal at CCS gripes me and not going to world cup again
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    MadAmster

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 8:18 am

    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I was unaware of this letter. It depicts a man of honour. A man who can think straight and argue his corner eloquently.

    According to the British Legion, the poppy is and isn't....


    The poppy is

    A symbol of Remembrance and hope
    Worn by millions of people
    Red because of the natural colour of field poppies

    The poppy is NOT

    A symbol of death or a sign of support for war
    A reflection of politics or religion
    Red to reflect the colour of blood


    Wearing a poppy is a personal choice and reflects individual and personal memories. It is not compulsory but is greatly appreciated by those it helps – our beneficiaries: those currently serving in our Armed Forces, veterans, and their families and dependants.


    The British Legion explains that the beneficiaries of the annual collection are Armed Services Personnel and their families. Nobody in possession of the facts of "the troubles" can, hand on heart, claim that ALL of the Army actions were whiter than white. Nobody on the para-military side can claim that they were always humane. There were innocent civilian victims of both sides.

    Maybe Mclean would be happier wearing a poppy if the families and dependants of innocent Irish victims also benefitted from the income from Poppy sales. Remember ALL of the victims of ALL wars and conficts from both sides of the fence.

    Of one thing I am sure, my personal view of Mclean is not what it was 10 minutes ago. The poppy is not intended to be divisive, it looks like it can be.

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    SawleyRam

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by SawleyRam on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 9:40 am

    I am being careful not to get political in this debate but there are certain groups who have rallied against our country that (for them) has made the Poppy poisonous.

    People in public and eye catching positions in this country should not be inflaming a popular and respectful period in order to publicise and deflect their own indiscretions whether right or wrong.

    There is and always will be other platforms for these protests, sport is not one of them.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Stockport Ram on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 6:31 pm

    mcsilks wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:I sincerely hope not.

    Anyone who refuses to wear a poppy , no matter how much he might visit childrens hospitals on Christmas morning and give out presents, and no matter how nice a guy he may be, is not welcomed by me as a representative of the club I support.


    McLeans letter stating the reasons why he didn't wear the poppy:

    Dear Mr Whelan,

    I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

    I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

    I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

    I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this.

    But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

    For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different.

    Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

    Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

    It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

    I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

    I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

    I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons. As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.





    Now I was always brought up to respect the beliefs of others and I fully respect his feelings for not wearing a poppy.

    Not one of us here knows what is was like growing up in the shadow of the 'Bloody Sunday massacre' and if I was told by others that I should wear something to remember something I was trying to forget, then I would likely feel the same as he does.

    I'm sorry for you Stockport Ram that you feel everyone has to jump on the poppy bandwagon irrespective of their beliefs.


    Wow. I'm allowed my opinion as you are yours.

    I had seen that prior to your posting and that's why I replied by implying his decency.

    He even understands that the poppy is not just a memorial for those lost in both world wars.

    The difference is this - He doesn't see it as a rememberance and respect for ALL war sacrifices - including those on both sides who tragically lost their lives in the troubles, as many have done in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Kosovo, Ukraine, the list is endless.

    For me it is about a sensless loss of human life.
    For him it is about his people.

    I stand by my view. He has his.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 8:02 pm

    McLean 1 goal per 8 appearances throughout his career (1 in 10 in the PL, 1 in 8 SBC). Russell 1 in 4 career and 1 in 5 for Derby (Figures rounded up/down).

    Fans say JR doesn't have enough end product........ is McLean the answer? Computer says no.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 8:15 pm

    I think McLean would be a good addition to our system
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 8:28 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:I am being careful not to get political in this debate but there are certain groups who have rallied against our country that (for them) has made the Poppy poisonous.

    People in public and eye catching positions in this country should not be inflaming a popular and respectful period in order to publicise and deflect their own indiscretions whether right or wrong.

    There is and always will be other platforms for these protests, sport is not one of them.

    That last line sounds an awful lot like those who trash the football players (American style baby!) who kneel to protest police brutality. Sports have always had politics in them, that is not new.
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by SawleyRam on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 10:14 pm

    Calif_Ramette wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:I am being careful not to get political in this debate but there are certain groups who have rallied against our country that (for them) has made the Poppy poisonous.

    People in public and eye catching positions in this country should not be inflaming a popular and respectful period in order to publicise and deflect their own indiscretions whether right or wrong.

    There is and always will be other platforms for these protests, sport is not one of them.

    That last line sounds an awful lot like those who trash the football players (American style baby!) who kneel to protest police brutality. Sports have always had politics in them, that is not new.

    Not so much in sport over here Calif, there has been isolated cases but the refusal by FIFA (the committee relented later) to ban the National team from wearing a poppy and McLean's refusal to wear a poppy whilst with Wigan, Sunderland and West Brom were the last ones I can remember in football over here.

    If my memory is short then there are those on here that will correct me I'm sure.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 10:33 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:
    Calif_Ramette wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:I am being careful not to get political in this debate but there are certain groups who have rallied against our country that (for them) has made the Poppy poisonous.

    People in public and eye catching positions in this country should not be inflaming a popular and respectful period in order to publicise and deflect their own indiscretions whether right or wrong.

    There is and always will be other platforms for these protests, sport is not one of them.

    That last line sounds an awful lot like those who trash the football players (American style baby!) who kneel to protest police brutality. Sports have always had politics in them, that is not new.

    Not so much in sport over here Calif, there has been isolated cases but the refusal by FIFA (the committee relented later) to ban the National team from wearing a poppy and McLean's refusal to wear a poppy whilst with Wigan, Sunderland and West Brom were the last ones I can remember in football over here.

    If my memory is short then there are those on here that will correct me I'm sure.

    FIFA sucks period and with their corruption they suck even more.

    I guess as an American it doesn't really bother me all that much, I read his letter and he has valid points and sees things differently. Then again my country was born on protest against yours :D IMO there are more important things to get upset about than the poppy but that is just me.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 7:47 am

    Calif Ramette wrote:there are more important things to get upset about than the poppy

    Not just the poppy though Cal, it is what it represents which makes it important as one of things it represents that is never spoken is the utter waste of lives that armed conflict always brings to the table. Lives on both sides of the conflict, many of whom just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    That is, IMO, a very important thing.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by rob on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 8:23 am

    it doesn't look like the dancing clown wants to let him go anyway so we don't have the issue at pride park
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 10:22 am

    It's not only the poppy issue with McLean he also turned his back on the National Anthem, a showing of deep disrespect. If he does not wish to wear the poppy in whatever games that demands that or dislikes this country that much he disrespects the Anthem he should ask not to play in those games then see how many clubs want to sign him in this country. he is either being hypocritical or using football as a platform for his own agenda.

    There is a picture in this article that shows him turning his back on the anthem (5th picture down.)

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-mcclean-new-poppy-snub-9151532
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by KeoghKeogh on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 6:50 pm

    The headline is better than the truth though... the photo shows him turned to the side with head bowed.

    He's Irish not English. It's not his national anthem.

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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 11:22 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:It's not only the poppy issue with McLean he also turned his back on the National Anthem, a showing of deep disrespect. If he does not wish to wear the poppy in whatever games that demands that or dislikes this country that much he disrespects the Anthem he should ask not to play in those games then see how many clubs want to sign him in this country. he is either being hypocritical or using football as a platform for his own agenda.

    There is a picture in this article that shows him turning his back on the anthem (5th picture down.)

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-mcclean-new-poppy-snub-9151532

    He is Irish, the English National Anthem isn't his anthem. He is being respectful by standing their quietly with his head down and hands folded. Why would he salute a countries anthem that isn't his own?
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by CornwallRam on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 1:00 am

    Calif_Ramette wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:It's not only the poppy issue with McLean he also turned his back on the National Anthem, a showing of deep disrespect. If he does not wish to wear the poppy in whatever games that demands that or dislikes this country that much he disrespects the Anthem he should ask not to play in those games then see how many clubs want to sign him in this country. he is either being hypocritical or using football as a platform for his own agenda.

    There is a picture in this article that shows him turning his back on the anthem (5th picture down.)

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-mcclean-new-poppy-snub-9151532

    He is Irish, the English National Anthem isn't his anthem. He is being respectful by standing their quietly with his head down and hands folded. Why would he salute a countries anthem that isn't his own?

    He's not technically Irish though Cali. He's from Northern Ireland, which makes him a UK national and makes God Save the Queen his national anthem. England does not actually have a national anthem.

    That said, most Catholics from Northern Ireland regard themselves as Irish and the UK as an occupying power. Most are moderate and don't get involved in overt displays of hatred, but in paces such as Derry, working class Catholics have suffered particularly at the hands of the British and their Protestant neighbours. To such communities, anti-British sentiment is ingrained and habitual. I can understand why he won't wear the poppy as it is clearly associated with the British Army. It is the equivalent of expecting someone from Jersey to wear a swastika to remember the German war dead.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 2:45 am

    CornwallRam wrote:
    Calif_Ramette wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:It's not only the poppy issue with McLean he also turned his back on the National Anthem, a showing of deep disrespect. If he does not wish to wear the poppy in whatever games that demands that or dislikes this country that much he disrespects the Anthem he should ask not to play in those games then see how many clubs want to sign him in this country. he is either being hypocritical or using football as a platform for his own agenda.

    There is a picture in this article that shows him turning his back on the anthem (5th picture down.)

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-mcclean-new-poppy-snub-9151532

    He is Irish, the English National Anthem isn't his anthem. He is being respectful by standing their quietly with his head down and hands folded. Why would he salute a countries anthem that isn't his own?

    He's not technically Irish though Cali. He's from Northern Ireland, which makes him a UK national and makes God Save the Queen his national anthem. England does not actually have a national anthem.

    That said, most Catholics from Northern Ireland regard themselves as Irish and the UK as an occupying power. Most are moderate and don't get involved in overt displays of hatred, but in paces such as Derry, working class Catholics have suffered particularly at the hands of the British and their Protestant neighbours. To such communities, anti-British sentiment is ingrained and habitual.  I can understand why he won't wear the poppy as it is clearly associated with the British Army. It is the equivalent of expecting someone from Jersey to wear a swastika to remember the German war dead.

    I wasn't sure of God Save the Queen was what yall sang. I understand why he doesn't wear it either. I just find that forced patriotism is sickening, I see it here in America and I am against that.
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 8:53 am

    Common error by non Brits. Many don't know the difference between England and the UK. Not suggesting Shak doesn't but she may not......

    Strange to think that the Welsh and Scots also have their "own" anthem but England and Northern Ireland use the UK anthem "God save the Queen".
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by valakari on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 9:19 am

    Always been confused with McClean..he is from Northern Ireland but plays for the Republic
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    Re: James McLean

    Post by SawleyRam on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 11:00 am

    Calif_Ramette wrote:
    SawleyRam wrote:It's not only the poppy issue with McLean he also turned his back on the National Anthem, a showing of deep disrespect. If he does not wish to wear the poppy in whatever games that demands that or dislikes this country that much he disrespects the Anthem he should ask not to play in those games then see how many clubs want to sign him in this country. he is either being hypocritical or using football as a platform for his own agenda.

    There is a picture in this article that shows him turning his back on the anthem (5th picture down.)

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-mcclean-new-poppy-snub-9151532

    He is Irish, the English National Anthem isn't his anthem. He is being respectful by standing their quietly with his head down and hands folded. Why would he salute a countries anthem that isn't his own?

    If a Mexican did that in your country what sort of reception would he get?(No Trumpisms please!)

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    Re: James McLean

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