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    World Cup Watch

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    MadAmster

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 8:26 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:The difference is in the detail.

    If Stones committed a foul, was it a clear and obvious error by the ref?  How far back do we go?

    Would a minor off the ball incident outside the box detract from an obvious foul missed by the ref inside it?   There would be uproar if that happened.

    VAR officials are making excuses IMHO.


    We have no detail on why the ref decided not to give either of the penalties. The VAR team thought they saw something (and they did) and then looked at the video from many different angles. They came up with the Stones incident and, with my ref's hat on, they made the right decision. The ref gave neither the Stones nor the Kane incident. Why he didn't is anybody's guess as he hasn't said, publicly at any rate, why he didn't give the Stones free kick. Nor has he said why he didn't give the Kane body slam. If he missed the Stones push then there is no excuse for him not to have given the Kane penalty unless he saw neither incident, in which case he is totally incompetent. As I have said before, the 1st claim being turned down, I can live with.

    The 2nd? The ref saw nothing, that is clear. The question is, did he see it and decide it was nothing or did he miss it altogether. The latter is impossible IMO. That would point to him having seen it and seen a reason not to give it. Might that be the 6 and 2 threes explanation from the VAR team or is he absolutely and totally incompetent? (or both? ;) ). If anybody has a link to video of the 2nd one, I would love to have another look at it. I saw no reason not to give a penalty based on the live video and the subsequent replays.

    Stockers asks "How far back do we go?". This is yet another grey area in the game. IMO the answer is....... look at the advantage rule. There is no definition as to how long the ref may allow play to carry on before the advantage has passed and he can't go back and give the free kick. The same idea applies to this situation, or would to me as a ref. For instance, if a player obstructs an opponent in order to win the ball, passes the ball to a teammate inside the box and he is fouled. I would give (I hope I would) an indirect free kick to the defending team. There is a direct correlation between the obstruction and the "penalty" incident. If the "obstructor" passes the ball into the box, a defender lumps it away and the ball comes back into the box and the incident then takes place, I would not go back to the obstruction but give the penalty.

    I hope that answers your question Stockers without raising too many new ones Wink
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by SawleyRam on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 10:22 am

    MadAmster wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:The difference is in the detail.

    If Stones committed a foul, was it a clear and obvious error by the ref?  How far back do we go?

    Would a minor off the ball incident outside the box detract from an obvious foul missed by the ref inside it?   There would be uproar if that happened.

    VAR officials are making excuses IMHO.


    We have no detail on why the ref decided not to give either of the penalties. The VAR team thought they saw something (and they did) and then looked at the video from many different angles. They came up with the Stones incident and, with my ref's hat on, they made the right decision. The ref gave neither the Stones nor the Kane incident. Why he didn't is anybody's guess as he hasn't said, publicly at any rate, why he didn't give the Stones free kick. Nor has he said why he didn't give the Kane body slam. If he missed the Stones push then there is no excuse for him not to have given the Kane penalty unless he saw neither incident, in which case he is totally incompetent. As I have said before, the 1st claim being turned down, I can live with.

    The 2nd? The ref saw nothing, that is clear. The question is, did he see it and decide it was nothing or did he miss it altogether. The latter is impossible IMO. That would point to him having seen it and seen a reason not to give it. Might that be the 6 and 2 threes explanation from the VAR team or is he absolutely and totally incompetent? (or both? ;)  ). If anybody has a link to video of the 2nd one, I would love to have another look at it. I saw no reason not to give a penalty based on the live video and the subsequent replays.

    Stockers asks "How far back do we go?". This is yet another grey area in the game. IMO the answer is.......  look at the advantage rule. There is no definition as to how long the ref may allow play to carry on before the advantage has passed and he can't go back and give the free kick. The same idea applies to this situation, or would to me as a ref. For instance, if a player obstructs an opponent in order to win the ball, passes the ball to a teammate inside the box and he is fouled. I would give (I hope I would) an indirect free kick to the defending team. There is a direct correlation between the obstruction and the "penalty" incident. If the "obstructor" passes the ball into the box, a defender lumps it away and the ball comes back into the box and the incident then takes place, I would not go back to the obstruction but give the penalty.

    I hope that answers your question Stockers without raising too many new ones Wink

    A clear and concise answer 'Ammy but within it lies the the problem, the rules allow too many ifs and buts and leaves the referee too many choices leading to inconsistencies that frustrate and anger those who support. The media promote controversy and the game is talked about which appears to be more important than the game nowadays.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 11:51 am

    SawleyRam wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:
    Stockport Ram wrote:The difference is in the detail.

    If Stones committed a foul, was it a clear and obvious error by the ref?  How far back do we go?

    Would a minor off the ball incident outside the box detract from an obvious foul missed by the ref inside it?   There would be uproar if that happened.

    VAR officials are making excuses IMHO.


    We have no detail on why the ref decided not to give either of the penalties. The VAR team thought they saw something (and they did) and then looked at the video from many different angles. They came up with the Stones incident and, with my ref's hat on, they made the right decision. The ref gave neither the Stones nor the Kane incident. Why he didn't is anybody's guess as he hasn't said, publicly at any rate, why he didn't give the Stones free kick. Nor has he said why he didn't give the Kane body slam. If he missed the Stones push then there is no excuse for him not to have given the Kane penalty unless he saw neither incident, in which case he is totally incompetent. As I have said before, the 1st claim being turned down, I can live with.

    The 2nd? The ref saw nothing, that is clear. The question is, did he see it and decide it was nothing or did he miss it altogether. The latter is impossible IMO. That would point to him having seen it and seen a reason not to give it. Might that be the 6 and 2 threes explanation from the VAR team or is he absolutely and totally incompetent? (or both? ;)  ). If anybody has a link to video of the 2nd one, I would love to have another look at it. I saw no reason not to give a penalty based on the live video and the subsequent replays.

    Stockers asks "How far back do we go?". This is yet another grey area in the game. IMO the answer is.......  look at the advantage rule. There is no definition as to how long the ref may allow play to carry on before the advantage has passed and he can't go back and give the free kick. The same idea applies to this situation, or would to me as a ref. For instance, if a player obstructs an opponent in order to win the ball, passes the ball to a teammate inside the box and he is fouled. I would give (I hope I would) an indirect free kick to the defending team. There is a direct correlation between the obstruction and the "penalty" incident. If the "obstructor" passes the ball into the box, a defender lumps it away and the ball comes back into the box and the incident then takes place, I would not go back to the obstruction but give the penalty.

    I hope that answers your question Stockers without raising too many new ones Wink

    A clear and concise answer 'Ammy but within it lies the the problem, the rules allow too many ifs and buts and leaves the referee too many choices leading to inconsistencies that frustrate and anger those who support. The media promote controversy and the game is talked about which appears to be more important than the game nowadays.

    Far from perfect I know Sawls but until they put me in charge it never will be Wink

    When does an advantage run out and you give the foul as none has accrued? I leave players in no doubt. I signal "play on" and say advantage (actually I say voordeel over here)... at a point in play I will either blow and go back to give the foul if no advantage has accrued or, if there is a shooting or crossing chance within a few seconds, I will say "advantage over". It's all about the ref being a) sensible b) informing the players so as to eradicate confusion and c) being consistent in how he handles issues.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Stockport Ram on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 9:19 pm

    I'm totally with you Ammy, and an excellent and clear explanation.

    The advantage rule can only be practically applied by the man (or woman) in the middle.

    The irksome bit for me is that, if you look hard enough, and you have 4 or 5 pairs of eyes with a slo-mo replay, you could imvariably find a contra infringement "in shot" whilst you are examining the original referred "offence". That simply isn't in the nature of one man "human" refereeing - if he or she saw both "real time" and decided not to give either, then he/she's a bloody genius - and that's simply what I object to. If he/she did, and called it tit for tat, then fair enough.


    If you refer, for example, tonight's clear and obvious penalty on Mitrovic, and the VAR sees a very minor alternative offence simultaneously (and by that I mean committed by another player, off the ball, by the attacking team - if its Mitrovic offending in that same incident then fair enough), then the other minor misdemeanour should be overlooked, as the ref didn't see enough to refer it originally.

    By definition, if the "main" incident was referred from within the VAR room to the ref (by buzzer), then they also didn''t see the minor off the ball infringement, so on further microscopic investigation it should also be overlooked.

    I like Law 5..... But I don''t want 6 or 7 refs, 4 or 5 of which have laptops !

    The danger with this World Cup of penalty proliferations is that it will be decided on one, via VAR.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 9:32 pm

    We are currently having a World Cup utterly dominated by incompetent officials. Rather than making things easier for refs VAR has only served to make things worse, largely through the secretive ineptitude of the officials running it.

    The on pitch referees seem completely dominated by self doubt, induced by knowing that any and every decision will be second guessed by a committee who will then seemingly question a random selection, determined by god knows what. It seems to me that there is no direction, no clarity and a disturbing lack of communication with the people who matter, the fans.

    Personally I'd throw it out immediately and get back to concentrating on football, the thing that is increasingly being pushed into the background.
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by SawleyRam on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 9:55 pm

    VAR is a big success, the failure is in the administration of it.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by MadAmster on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 10:14 pm

    I await with baited breath the explanation as to why the Motrovic penalty wasn't given.

    The ref didn't give it. Was VAR even used for that incident?

    It worked well for the Neymar "penalty". My hope is that the mere presence of VAR leads to players no longer cheating, and that is what Neymar did, as they kknow they will get caught.

    On another point, how many fouls are just not being given? How many justified cards aare not being given? It almost appears as if the refs have abandoned all responsibility.
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 10:21 pm

    Couldn't agree more Amster. The Neymar one is a good example, he clearly dived but having seen the proof he wasn't booked, why?

    The tackle from behind has largely been eradicated in the English game but it seems to be acceptable in this world cup as long as the ball is won, regardless of whether the man is fouled to get to it.
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    Stockport Ram

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Stockport Ram on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 10:49 pm

    Spot on too, Loughie.

    If VAR led to the eradication of diving cheats then I''d love it MA.

    Until refs' start using it to book attackers who deliberately "find" defenders with their legs and then fall over them, and until ex pros stop using the phrase "there was contact" (I'd pass a law to letter bomb any ex pro using this as an excuse to justify a pen), the whole culture of the game will remain rotten to its professional core.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Fri 22 Jun 2018, 11:06 pm

    Ex pros who would have blown a gasket about somebody diving when there was 'contact' when they were players. Roy Keane or Martin Keown for instance justifying players tumbling over after the merest contact is just laughable
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 4:43 am

    Perhaps England should just put its chances away and not quibble over given decisions or not. Its their fault they scraped by and just got the win. They should get by Panama but unless they actually learn to score no VAR or refs are going to help them against Belgium.
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:19 am

    You're missing the point Cal, this isn't about England, we won, this is about how poorly VAR is operating due to incompetent officiating. England, Australia, Serbie are among those who have been affected, Serbia possibly to the point of elimination from the competition.
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    valakari

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by valakari on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:57 am

    Is it corrupt? Mitrovich should have had penalty v Switzerland....isnt Sepp Blatter Swiss?.. and guess who is a guest of Putin for the World Cup!!!!
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    MadAmster

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by MadAmster on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 8:47 am

    Stockport Ram wrote:Spot on too, Loughie.

    If VAR led to the eradication of diving cheats then I''d love it MA.

    Until refs' start using it to book attackers who deliberately "find" defenders with their legs  and then fall over them,  and until ex pros stop using the phrase "there was contact"  (I'd pass a law to letter bomb any ex pro using this as an excuse to justify a pen), the whole culture of the game will remain rotten to its professional core.

    I refer my learned friend to Old Trafford in THAT season. Top of the table MU playing against some team who were rock bottom Embarassed . Last minute of 2nd half injury time, Man U 3-1 up, CR7 gets the ball in the area, turns and runs in the direction of the side line, spots Mears' leg, dives forwards and hangs his left leg out so that it hits Mears' calf and gets a penalty. He takes it himself, 4-1. He caused the contact yet Mears got penalised...... Why did he feel the need to cheat? The game was econds away from ending. 3-1 up against the bottom team. Totally unnecessary IMO.

    1-1 in the dying seconds of a Cup Final I might just about understand it but never, ever condone it. Why just about? I was brought up, and still think that way, that anything "won" through cheating is nothing to be proud of.
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 7:59 pm

    VAR is corrupt

    That is the only explanation for Sweden not to get a penalty against Germany. It was a stonewall certainty of a penalty, the player through one on one with the goalie, the defender clearly fouled the attaker, in the penalty area only for it not to be reviewed. The ref should have given it, if not four visually impaired f*ckin idiots would have asked him to take another look, yet no, VAR saw nothing wrong. Says it all for me, somebody is getting something from somebody to make sure that decisions ate going 'the right way'
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by SawleyRam on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:18 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:VAR is corrupt

    That is the only explanation for Sweden not to get a penalty against Germany. It was a stonewall certainty of a penalty, the player through one on one with the goalie, the defender clearly fouled the attaker, in the penalty area only for it not to be reviewed. The ref should have given it, if not four visually impaired f*ckin idiots would have asked him to take another look, yet no, VAR saw nothing wrong. Says it all for me, somebody is getting something from somebody to make sure that decisions ate going 'the right way'

    As I understand it Loughie the VAR referees can only recommend to the on the field referee to revisit the decision but if the man in the middle says no and chooses to ignore and stick by his first verdict then so be it, right or wrong.

    VAR is not corrupt, the system is.
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 11:28 pm

    Excuses, excuses, excuses, it all seems to be smoke and mirrors with everybody blaming everybody else. The system couldn't be more simple, so the only conclusion to draw from so many inconsistencies and glaring errors is that some influences are being brought to bear to make sure that 'the right decisions' are made.

    FIFA aren't exactly averse to tinkering with the facts are they?
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by New England Ram on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 12:19 am

    Yeah terrible none call or non review or what ever you call it.
    FIFA has to send out a memo that the Var refs have to stagger their tea breaks and can no longer all leave together.
    Players flashing imaginary cards was always tiresome..players and managers now playing charades is even more tiresome.
    Three cracking games today...seems like no teams are that special defensively which is helping the excitement.



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    MadAmster

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by MadAmster on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 8:12 am

    The incident occurred, I shouted PENALTY and was aghast when it wasn't given.

    Yet another explanation fromm those on high needed but won't be forthcoming.

    VAR can and does work. Just look at the Neymar non penalty. Given by the ref and then rescinded when revisited by VAR.

    It aint perfect but I would rather it be there and used to get far more verdicts right than there used to be.

    Failures? Last night's Germany v Sweden error, Kane's 2nd, Griezmann in France's opener is one that could be given but there is still a lot of doubt in a lot of minds whether it really should have been given.....

    Was VAR a great move ny FIFA to move opinion against technology rather than against refs?
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by SawleyRam on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 11:04 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Excuses, excuses, excuses, it all seems to be smoke and mirrors with everybody blaming everybody else. The system couldn't be more simple, so the only conclusion to draw from so many inconsistencies and glaring errors is that some influences are being brought to bear to make sure that 'the right decisions' are made.

    FIFA aren't exactly averse to tinkering with the facts are they?

    The Referee's with big egos (and they are some) will not like to corrected by technology so will ignore VAR recommendations and the inconsistencies will still be apparent but to a lesser extent.

    While there is the human factor involved there will always be problems no matter how perfect the machinery is.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 11:08 am

    So if human error is going to drive the system there is no point having the system. It is supposed to be there to help referees but in my opinion it has made the standard of refereeing in this tournament fall through the floor.
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by New England Ram on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 11:45 am

    Football survived for years with the refs decision being final for over a hundred years.
    We only find ourselves with VAR because of the financial gains and greed that now blights the game.
    Slowly killing the game for me...wait let me review that



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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by New England Ram on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 6:36 pm

    As England fans we are expected to take the disappointments on the chin.
    Yet some folk are today telling us to temper our enthusiasm because of the nature of the opponents yet many were raving about Belgium and their 3-0 win over today’s opponents .
    Sod that ..we should be able to. enjoy the fact that an England team is rightly in the spotlight for something good.



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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Calif_Ramette on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 7:58 pm

    New England Ram wrote:As England fans we are expected to take the disappointments on the chin.
    Yet some folk are  today  telling us to temper our enthusiasm because of the nature of the opponents yet many were raving about Belgium and their 3-0 win over today’s opponents .
    Sod that ..we should be able to. enjoy the fact that an England team is rightly in the spotlight for something good.

    There is a difference between enjoying the win and suddenly saying England are going all the way as I have seen some England fans say. Enjoy it yes but don't act like you beat a big country and are world beaters either. It was just Panama.
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    Re: World Cup Watch

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Sun 24 Jun 2018, 8:07 pm

    At least they made it to Russia, just remind me Cal, what are the USA team doing this summer

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