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    Loughborough Ram

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    why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 8:02 pm

    I've watched a substantial amount of games in this world cup, it will be remembered as the VAR world cup but what strikes me more than anything else is the nodding dogs in the studio.

    Am I the only person who thinks that pundits at both BBC and ITV have been instructed not to criticise VAR?
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    Jackal

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Jackal on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 9:04 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:I've watched a substantial amount of games in this world cup, it will be remembered as the VAR world cup but what strikes me more than anything else is the nodding dogs in the studio.

    Am I the only person who thinks that pundits at both BBC and ITV have been instructed not to criticise VAR?  
    Phil Neville certainly isn't a fan.
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    valakari

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by valakari on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 9:35 pm

    Well it didnt pick up the rugby tackles on Kane!
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 9:37 pm

    France get a penalty for the merest breath on Griezman and everybody says it's the right decision. Hernandez is wrestled to the ground by Boeteng yesterday and it isn't referred, and the pundits say he went down to easily so it was right. Harry Kane is beaten up three f*ckin times and not one of the three or four VAR wallahs think that any of them are worth another look.

    After tonight the whole system as it stands, is completely redundant as it looks as corrupt as FIFA itself. Tomorrow the FA should demand to know why a system designed to pick up decisions missed by the referee wasn't used in such an important game, especially now that it cannot be deemed to be sour grapes.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 9:49 pm

    Always glad to be of assistance Loughie......

    Refs and VAR started well hence no moaning.

    Brazil - I had them down to win 2-0. If VAR had seen the Swiss goal disallowed, as it should have been and Brazil get a penalty as they should have, I may well have got that right.

    Tonight, their peno was "soft" but when you wave an arm in the box and an opponent runs into it, it can always be given and it was. Kane got 2 good goals and should have had 2 penalties as well.

    The ref tonight? Poor. Very poor. Did nothing about their time wasting. Did nothing about the wrestling in the box apart from have the odd word which he didn't follow up on. He also did bugger all to stop them standing 6 inches off the ball to stop us taking quick free kicks.

    Hope tomorrow'a lot are better.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 10:01 pm

    Amster I don't think VAR has started well at all considering it should be so simple, see something the ref doesn't, let him know and he can change his decision. They only have to worry about goals, penalties and sending offs so they aren't exactly over worked. If four qualified officials didn't see anything wrong with Tunisia's brutality towards Kane, how on earth did they spot a vague change in the wind direction near Griezman for a French team struggling to overcome a gutsy Australian team?

    I've always said if you want a good rule f*cking up, ask a ref to implement it, seems that I might be close to the truth.

    There are simply no excuses for the total breakdown of VAR tonight, the only way for it to stay credible in my opinion is for FIFA to issue an apology to England and send home all of the officials involved tonight.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 8:54 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Amster I don't think VAR has started well at all considering it should be so simple, see something the ref doesn't, let him know and he can change his decision. They only have to worry about goals, penalties and sending offs so they aren't exactly over worked. If four qualified officials didn't see anything wrong with Tunisia's brutality towards Kane, how on earth did they spot a vague change in the wind direction near Griezman for a French team struggling to overcome a gutsy Australian team?

    I've always said if you want a good rule f*cking up, ask a ref to implement it, seems that I might be close to the truth.

    There are simply no excuses for the total breakdown of VAR tonight, the only way for it to stay credible in my opinion is for FIFA to issue an apology to England and send home all of the officials involved tonight.

    Loughie, I understand what you mean. Speaking as one of those gentlemen in question, it is, as you well know, a matter of interpretation. Interpretation of the Law and interpretation of what you see.

    Now, if I remember correctly, the Aussie defender slid in, played the ball, only just mind but he did contact the ball and then slid through. He then made contact with Griezmann and he went down. The was it or wasn't it question now hangs on the following........ was the length of the slide sufficiently short to be deemed a "natural follow through" or was it sufficiently long enough to be deemed not to be under control? That would be my consideration.

    My thoughts are that it wasn't an out of control slide and the penalty shouldn't have been given.
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    SawleyRam

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 9:02 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Amster I don't think VAR has started well at all considering it should be so simple, see something the ref doesn't, let him know and he can change his decision. They only have to worry about goals, penalties and sending offs so they aren't exactly over worked. If four qualified officials didn't see anything wrong with Tunisia's brutality towards Kane, how on earth did they spot a vague change in the wind direction near Griezman for a French team struggling to overcome a gutsy Australian team?

    I've always said if you want a good rule f*cking up, ask a ref to implement it, seems that I might be close to the truth.

    There are simply no excuses for the total breakdown of VAR tonight, the only way for it to stay credible in my opinion is for FIFA to issue an apology to England and send home all of the officials involved tonight.

    The VAR has worked well Loughie, but the interpretation of the system is still open to human errors and "blind eye" treatment by the officials.

    Perhaps they were under guard by Russian Police armed with sub machine guns in their locked room and was told what to say.

    I still blame Putin.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 9:59 am

    Amster, are you really saying that penalties can now be given for sliding? Because in my opinion, if you ignore the touch on the ball, and ignore the slide there was nothing in the barely visible contact, even in slow motion, that warranted a penalty. This point is emphasised a million times when you see the contact ignored for the Swiss goal, the non penalty for Mexico and the double assault last night on Harry Kane.

    In my opinion this doesn't indicate a problem with interpretation, it screams corruption and officials being asked to give decisions for other motives.

    VAR is redundant in its current form because it's just another way that results can be manufactured to suit the requirements of third parties.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 10:48 am

    Loughborough Ram wrote:Amster, are you really saying that penalties can now be given for sliding? Because in my opinion, if you ignore the touch on the ball, and ignore the slide there was nothing in the barely visible contact, even in slow motion, that warranted a penalty. This point is emphasised a million times when you see the contact ignored for the Swiss goal, the non penalty for Mexico and the double assault last night on Harry Kane.

    In my opinion this doesn't indicate a problem with interpretation, it screams corruption and officials being asked to give decisions for other motives.

    VAR is redundant in its current form because it's just another way that results can be manufactured to suit the requirements of third parties.

    Yes, when the slide is deemed "controlled", it isn't an offence. What is controlled? They don't actually specify but simple logic has it that anything more than a yard or so and you are no longer in control of how far you are going in that slide. No longer in control equates to a foul.

    Griezmann's "slider" was in control IMO. Had he gone 4 or 5 yards on his arse then I would say he wasn't.

    Them's the Laws. Shame they don't get enforced properly.

    One of the reasons behind VAR was an attempt to cut out poor interpretation. Until the Brazil game it seemed to be working with the exception of the Griezmann incident. Two failure in the Brazil v Mexico game. Another 2 in the Kane incidents............


    EDIT..... The Sweden penalty was correctly given by VAR. No ball contact by the defender, he brought the Swede down, penalty all day long.

    We will never know why the 2 Kane incidents weren't given and that is a shame. The only saving grace will be if they get discussed internally by FIFA and the refs and they agree that the decisions were wrong and that error should not be repeated..... I am not holding my breath.

    I am 100% behind VAR but so far this tournament it is probably worth a 5 or a 6 out of ten at most.
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 11:06 am

    I doubt very much that we will agree on this subject but one other thing that I think lets it VAR down and fuels my suspicion of corruption is the lack of transparency. In Rugby there is an open and clear discussion that everyone has access to, yet in football the people making these decisions feel that it's best kept from the great unwashed. Consequently none of us actually know who is making these decisions and what their motives are.

    Is it completely unthinkable that certainly at world cup level, there are outside influences at play because I have absolutely no doubt that this could easily be the case.
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    MadAmster

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 12:35 pm

    Loughborough Ram wrote:I doubt very much that we will agree on this subject but one other thing that I think lets it VAR down and fuels my suspicion of corruption is the lack of transparency. In Rugby there is an open and clear discussion that everyone has access to, yet in football the people making these decisions feel that it's best kept from the great unwashed. Consequently none of us actually know who is making these decisions and what their motives are.

    Is it completely unthinkable that certainly at world cup level, there are outside influences at play because I have absolutely no doubt that this could easily be the case.

    I don't think that we are that far apart really Loughie. Transparency is one aspect that needs bringing in. With you there on that.

    Corruption at work or favouring the top sides? Brazil were done down by VAR. So were England. That's FIFA rankings 1 and 12. Disproves that theory a little but the doubts are still there to an extent.

    The point is, with so many cameras and camera angles, they really need to get things spot on or folk will smell a rat. The Brazil fiasco, the England fiasco...... noses are twitching and FIFA have to get it sorted or face the wrath of the public............. whether that will help is a different subject altogether.....

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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 1:40 pm

    No, I don't think it favours the big teams, Quatar were awarded the next world cup. FIFA have many influences and many motives other than favouring the big teams.
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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 3:20 pm

    FIFA have just announced that they are to monitor the VAR refs to ensure it is working as intended.....


    .... refs monitoring the refs that are monitoring the refs LOL roll
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    outsider

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by outsider on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 3:21 pm

    MadAmster wrote:FIFA have just announced that they are to monitor the VAR refs to ensure it is working as intended.....


    .... refs monitoring the refs that are monitoring the refs LOL roll

    LOL roll LOL roll
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 3:38 pm

    They bring in VAR after we are robbed of a perfectly good goal against Germany. Now they announce that they are going to moniter the system after we are robbed of 2 stonewall penalties against Tunisia.

    Maybe, just maybe, they should do these things before our f*ckin games rather reacting to f*ck ups at our expense
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    MadAmster

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 5:51 pm

    Senegal's 2nd goal.....

    The Laws say only the ref can give an injured player permission to re-enter the field. The 4th official allowed Niang back on and he immediately scored following a backwards pass by a Polish player who hadn't seen hime come back on.......

    ..... should have been disallowed.
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    DavesaRam

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by DavesaRam on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 7:43 pm

    I got a Facebook post on my phone during the day which maybe explained why the Kane penos weren't. I can't find the post now because it is almost impossible to go through browsing history on my phone.

    For the first one, the goons had spotted a push in the back of a Tunisian attacker immediately before the mauling of Kane (is there a movie title in there, anyone?) which makes the VAR unnecessary - the ref should have blown for the first foul, so any subsequent ones don't count.

    For the second Kane mauling (there's the sequel!), Kane was holding down on the defender's arm, so the officials deemed it a 50/50 offence and scrapped that appeal as well.

    For the first excuse, it would mean that penalties would never, ever be given again, ever, simply because there are always fouls going on in the box in any build up, so there is bound to be one prior to any penalty-causing offence.

    As many have already said, "Agenda" would seem to be the key word, here.

    By the way, rumour has it that the ref has already contacted the Football League and negotiated the exclusive rights to all of Derby County's matches for next season, and because he is so obviously up to standard, the FL agreed to his proposals in full. You heard it here first! Whistle
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    MadAmster

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 9:51 pm

    DavesaRam wrote:

    For the first one, the goons had spotted a push in the back of a Tunisian attacker immediately before the mauling of Kane (is there a movie title in there, anyone?) which makes the VAR unnecessary - the ref should have blown for the first foul, so any subsequent ones don't count.


    It was a Tunisian defender tha was pushed. The guilty party was Stones.
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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 10:46 pm

    VAR working well: Mo Salah bought down in the area. Ref gives free kick outside of area, a whisper in his earpiece, Ref changes mind and awards penalty, job's a good un.

    Why oh why didn't that happen on..................oh never mind!

    I blame (Ras)Putin
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    MadAmster

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by MadAmster on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 8:05 am

    MadAmster wrote:
    DavesaRam wrote:

    For the first one, the goons had spotted a push in the back of a Tunisian attacker immediately before the mauling of Kane (is there a movie title in there, anyone?) which makes the VAR unnecessary - the ref should have blown for the first foul, so any subsequent ones don't count.


    It was a Tunisian defender tha was pushed. The guilty party was Stones.

    They have now also said that the 2nd one saw Kane holding the arm of the defender so it was a case of 6 and 2 threes..... I have to admit I can't remember seeing Kane holding during that incident but, obviously the VAR refs did Wink
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    Loughborough Ram

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    Re: why no criticism

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Wed 20 Jun 2018, 8:35 am

    So what's the situation now? Wrestling moves are allowed? If somebody grabs you you automatically grab them to steady yourself and try and prevent yourself from falling over.

    For sometime there has been a reluctance from referees to do anything about grappling in the box at set pieces. Now they are effectively saying that it is allowedand the strongest man wins.

    I'd be interested to see if we had scored from the first one, whether they would have disallowed it for the 'push' from Stones.

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