COME ON YOU RAMS the Derby County fans forum

a friendly place to chat about Derby County, football and life


    The two faces of VAR.

    Share
    avatar
    MadAmster

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 14761
    Registration date : 2009-02-20
    Points : 16549
    Age : 64
    Location : Where else but Amster Dam

    The two faces of VAR.

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 8:31 am

    Following Stocker's comments in the World Cup Watch thread and a WhatsApp conversation we had yesterday, I thought I would open the discussion to our COYR compatriots and have everybody's thoughts on it.

    Here's my two pennyworth..........

    We saw both faces (and maybe more) of VAR in the 2018 WC Final. I will address two individual moments.

    FACE #1

    VAR is limited in its permitted use and that is, IMO, the bad face of VAR.

    Let's take a look at the Griezmann "free kick". He conned the ref and got away with it because free kicks in open play are outside of the jurisdiction of VAR. Griezmann took the free kick and Mandzukic diverted it into his own net. 1-0 France.

    If VAR had been allowed to be used then the free kick would have been rescinded and Griezmann would have got a yellow card for simulation.

    This, IMO, is the embodiment of VAR's failings. I believe it should allowed to be used in all situations. ALLOWED being the important word here. I would never advocate its use in ALL situations as you would get 47 VAR situations in every game and a match would last 3 hours.

    How would I use it then?

    Allow it to be used all over the pitch for any kind of issue. However, its use should be rationed. The officials should be allowed to call for VAR if they are uncertain of what happened. Was it a goal or not? Should I give a penalty or not? Free kicks (Griezmann's for instance) and corners that could lead to goals, did I get it right? Game changing moments.

    I would also give the teams a ration each. Two or maybe three "challenges" per half. If you challenge and was right then you don't lose a challenge. I would probably err on 2 per half as this would prevent spurious challenges designed to do litlle more than take the momentum out of the game. I realise that, late in a half and with both challenges still available teams may well take a spurious gamble. That would remain a "loophole" in the system but only a minor one. Unless of course teams lost one automatically after 35 minutes or so........ If you had already wasted 1 then you wouldn't have any left. That might be sufficient to stop misuse of the system. I fully expect more suggestions from you guys and gals.



    FACE #2

    It gets used in a situation that IS permitted by the VAR guidelines/rules/Laws.

    The penalty. I only saw the replay as I had just nipped into the kitchen to get drinks for some of my guests and walked back out into the garden to see half a dozen or so happy looking French players with their hand above their heads. Some of them appeared to be clapping. My first thought was "bugger, they've scored". Then the replay kicked in and I said, as did everybody in my garden, penalty. The ref had a dialogue with the VAR official(s) and then drew an imaginary square in the air. He then ran off to watch his personal TV. Having seen the footage he gave the penalty. Penalty was the correct decision.

    That giving of the penalty was an objective decision based on what actually happened. In this particular case it was a match in which I had no real vested interest.

    The acid test for me is, would I accept the VAR decision if it meant a penalty beign awarded against Derby? The answer there is a resounding yes. I want Derby to win but I also want them to win fairly and deservedly. For instance, the Jerome yellow card at home to Bristol City that should have been a penalty to us. Reverse the situation and I may well mutter "bloody VAR" under my breath but, IMO, proper use of VAR will stop almost all, if not all, of the shenannigins and give all teams the right decision.

    There you have it. The basis of the discussion. VAR is here to stay. The big question is where/how to use it. Should it have been allowed to be used to correct the wrongly given free kick that led to France's first. That it wasn't is 100% correct under the current Laws of VAR use. I think it should be allowed to disallow wrongly given free kicks.

    Over to you my friends.
    avatar
    New England Ram
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1968
    First ever game : Bury away 1968
    Number of posts : 23394
    Registration date : 2009-02-18
    Points : 28034
    Age : 58
    Location : Boston USA

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by New England Ram on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 9:15 am

    Unfortunately I don’t see it going away..I say unfortunately because I hate it.
    And if we are stuck with it then it should be for nothing more than reviewing goals and possible penalties .
    No more...just makes the game even more cookie cutter and plastic to me.



    avatar
    MadAmster

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 14761
    Registration date : 2009-02-20
    Points : 16549
    Age : 64
    Location : Where else but Amster Dam

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 12:28 pm

    New England Ram wrote:Unfortunately I don’t see it going away..I say unfortunately because I hate it.
    And if we are stuck with it then it should be for nothing more than reviewing goals and possible penalties .
    No more...just makes the game even more cookie cutter and plastic to me.

    So you're OK with Griezmann's play acting to get the free kick that led to the own goal?
    avatar
    Loughborough Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1970
    Number of posts : 11627
    Registration date : 2009-02-14
    Points : 14104
    Location : Doghouse

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by Loughborough Ram on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 3:25 pm

    The problem with VAR, which will never change, is that it is run by referees, most of whom want to be the star of the show.
    avatar
    New England Ram
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1968
    First ever game : Bury away 1968
    Number of posts : 23394
    Registration date : 2009-02-18
    Points : 28034
    Age : 58
    Location : Boston USA

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by New England Ram on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 3:51 pm

    MadAmster wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:Unfortunately I don’t see it going away..I say unfortunately because I hate it.
    And if we are stuck with it then it should be for nothing more than reviewing goals and possible penalties .
    No more...just makes the game even more cookie cutter and plastic to me.

    So you're OK with Griezmann's play acting to get the free kick that led to the own goal?

    No ..I’m all about punishing players like him with three game suspensions..
    And eventually that will all stop.



    avatar
    MadAmster

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 14761
    Registration date : 2009-02-20
    Points : 16549
    Age : 64
    Location : Where else but Amster Dam

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 4:26 pm

    New England Ram wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:Unfortunately I don’t see it going away..I say unfortunately because I hate it.
    And if we are stuck with it then it should be for nothing more than reviewing goals and possible penalties .
    No more...just makes the game even more cookie cutter and plastic to me.

    So you're OK with Griezmann's play acting to get the free kick that led to the own goal?

    No ..I’m all about punishing players like him with three game suspensions..
    And eventually that will all stop.

    I have long advocated todays professional refs reviewing all televised matches, and that means the entire Football league these days, in the days after a round of matches to iron the creases out. Obviously they will be unable to change the result but they could

    1. rescind wrongly given cards and thereby making the appeals procedure redundant

    2. give cards that were deserved but not given by the match ref thereby helping to eradicate Griezmann like issues

    This retrospective "justice" would soon have manager a) complaining like hell and shortly afterwards b) deciding to tell their players to stop diving, to stop feigning injury, to stop elbowing, to stop the practice of shoving their forearm into the back/neck/shoulder to gain unfair advantage in aerial duels........
    avatar
    Stockport Ram

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1971
    First ever game : Newcastle (h) Easter 1983 I think
    Number of posts : 5697
    Registration date : 2010-03-22
    Points : 6299
    Age : 52
    Location : That's a toughie.......

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by Stockport Ram on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 7:02 pm

    MadAmster wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:
    New England Ram wrote:Unfortunately I don’t see it going away..I say unfortunately because I hate it.
    And if we are stuck with it then it should be for nothing more than reviewing goals and possible penalties .
    No more...just makes the game even more cookie cutter and plastic to me.

    So you're OK with Griezmann's play acting to get the free kick that led to the own goal?

    No ..I’m all about punishing players like him with three game suspensions..
    And eventually that will all stop.

    I have long advocated todays professional refs reviewing all televised matches, and that means the entire Football league these days, in the days after a round of matches to iron the creases out. Obviously they will be unable to change the result but they could

    1. rescind wrongly given cards and thereby making the appeals procedure redundant

    2. give cards that were deserved but not given by the match ref thereby helping to eradicate Griezmann like issues

    This retrospective "justice" would soon have manager a) complaining like hell and shortly afterwards b) deciding to tell their players to stop diving, to stop feigning injury, to stop elbowing, to stop the practice of shoving their forearm into the back/neck/shoulder to gain unfair advantage in aerial duels........

    MA and I have had a lengthy discussion so please forgive me, my friend, as I share my viewpoint for the benefit of others. I have copied and pasted my facebook post, and will elaborate thereafter:

    "VAR. Has it reduced all in wrestling inside the box at corners? Yes. Has it reduced other nefarious tactics? Probably. Has it decided a World Cup Final? Definitely.

    The referee was allowed to make a human error with the penalty BECAUSE of VAR. France can win 6-1 now, it doesn''t matter, the damage has been done to our beautiful game. As I feared it would.

    It has absolutely no place in football for subjective decisions."


    A number of obvious talking points arise from this:

    1. My statement is based on the premise that it wasn''t a penalty. Ammy, as a qualified ref, is convinced that it was. It is interesting that he only saw the replay and not the "real time" incident. Would he have given it in real time? Knowing his integrity I have no doubt that he would. I would have accepted that decision as it was possible to give a penalty because the ball hit a hand. The hand was coming down, and did fractionally move towards the ball, but at real speed, (and the Ref was in an excellent position by the way) it would have taken a genius to spot it, such was the short distance that the ball travelled from deflection to hand.

    ...and here's the key. On field, the ref said no penalty. I believe his gut instinct was right, but that really doesn't matter. The referee's decision is final....or should be.

    What VAR does is allow unnatural replays to evidence something which the human eye may or may not have seen. It takes the essence of the game away. Keep goal line technology - goal/no goal is no different to LBW in cricket or hawkeye in tennis - that is factual.

    Football is a game of opinions. I believe Battenberg ( I know, I know) said no penalty, Ammy said penalty, and the ref changed his mind and gave it. He souldn't have been put in the position to make the change. He refs it AS HE SEES IT.

    Assistance from linesmen/women? fine. Fourth official? Fine. They see it themselves, real time.

    Help from a group of folk ridiculously dressed up in referees kit a thousand miles away with the aid of 17 camera angles and 9 super slo-mo's?

    All that the presence of VAR for these decisions does is encourage players to do a passable impression of Lionel Blair in "Give us a clue" (ask your parents), by miming a TV programme to the guest panelliists- or in this case, the ref. It undermines his authority simply because they know he can be influenced into having another look, and players have been therefore allowed to "con" the ref in an all new but different way.

    Has VAR meant more "correct" decisions? Of course. Has it made the game better? That depends on how you believe the game should be played...and refereed.

    As Ammy said, use it post match to book/suspend Griezmann for the dive leading to the first free kick. Suspend holders at corners for 3 games. There are ways of removing the wrongs without diminishing the pure essence of the referees decision.

    You can't have half a VAR. You either accept it for everything, (within common sense limits as MA has suggested) or not.

    Some decisions in football will ALWAYS be subjective. So let the ref use his subjectivity in the way he/she always has.

    Mistakes are part and parcel of the game, and VAR will NOT eradicate them - it can't - so why have it at all?
    avatar
    MadAmster

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 0
    Number of posts : 14761
    Registration date : 2009-02-20
    Points : 16549
    Age : 64
    Location : Where else but Amster Dam

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by MadAmster on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 7:59 pm

    No need to excuse you. If you hadn't reposted the Facebook conversation it wouldn't have made sense to our fellow COYR'ers.

    I am in favour of VAR although it won't help me at the level I officiate.........

    I would advocate extending its use. France went a goal up via a set of circumstances that started with Griezmann cheating. The ref was conned. VAR should have been used to give him a slap (not literally, of course Wink )

    Cheats should not prosper. France (and Griezmann) did benefit from his cheating.
    avatar
    New England Ram
    Admin

    Rams Fan Since Rams Fan Since : 1968
    First ever game : Bury away 1968
    Number of posts : 23394
    Registration date : 2009-02-18
    Points : 28034
    Age : 58
    Location : Boston USA

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by New England Ram on Mon 16 Jul 2018, 11:07 pm

    Currently no plans for VAR on The Racecourse pitch 12 furthest from the changing rooms,
    So not all is lost.




    Sponsored content

    Re: The two faces of VAR.

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat 18 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm