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    Sex and Gender Classification in Sport Research

    theacademic
    theacademic

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    Post by theacademic on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 2:35 am

    Hi all,

    I am involved in a research study looking at fans' views of sex and gender classification in sport and I am hoping you can spare a few minutes of your time to share your thoughts in an online survey: https://teesside.onlinesurveys.ac.uk/transgender-and-sport

    Thanks in advance.
    whestonram
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    Post by whestonram on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 8:10 am

    theacademic wrote:Hi all,

    I am involved in a research study looking at fans' views of sex and gender classification in sport and I am hoping you can spare a few minutes of your time to share your thoughts in an online survey: https://teesside.onlinesurveys.ac.uk/transgender-and-sport  

    Thanks in advance.

    Done. Important and tricky area. I hope the research helps sport develop a sensible and sensitive approach to the issue
    SawleyRam
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    Post by SawleyRam on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 11:33 am

    theacademic wrote:Hi all,

    I am involved in a research study looking at fans' views of sex and gender classification in sport and I am hoping you can spare a few minutes of your time to share your thoughts in an online survey: https://teesside.onlinesurveys.ac.uk/transgender-and-sport  

    Thanks in advance.

    That was a very thought provoking survey, I even found out more about me and I've known me all my life!



    It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing.
    MadAmster
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    Post by MadAmster on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 11:59 am

    I contributed yesterday to this as well. Although it's a secret survey I will tell you the gist of my thoughts on it.

    1. I have no answer to the conundrum
    2. Natural born males transgendering to trans female status will, IMO, have an advantage in strength despite the hormone treatment they receive. That is not fair to the CIS females they will be competing against following transition
    3. Do we create a 3rd category so that major Championships are there for male, female and trans. The Trans family would claim that is discrimination, unfair and illegal
    4. Do we scrap all of the categories and simply have events open to all. That would be seen to be unfair to CIS women and discriminate against them as they would never win another medal/race/game etc

    Whatever the authorities decide they are going to be seen as being unfair to at least one group of people and discriminatory to at least one as well. I do not envy them one iota. They can't win, whatever they decide.
    whestonram
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    Post by whestonram on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 12:10 pm

    MadAmster wrote:I contributed yesterday to this as well. Although it's a secret survey I will tell you the gist of my thoughts on it.

    1. I have no answer to the conundrum
    2. Natural born males transgendering to trans female status will, IMO, have an advantage in strength despite the hormone treatment they receive. That is not fair to the CIS females they will be competing against following transition
    3. Do we create a 3rd category so that major Championships are there for male, female and trans. The Trans family would claim that is discrimination, unfair and illegal
    4. Do we scrap all of the categories and simply have events open to all. That would be seen to be unfair to CIS women and discriminate against them as they would never win another medal/race/game etc

    Whatever the authorities decide they are going to be seen as being unfair to at least one group of people and discriminatory to at least one as well. I do not envy them one iota. They can't win, whatever they decide.

    I definitely agree with your first two points. It seems to me that the sort of thing that I think some sports are doing - regulation of hormone levels or something - is about as much as can be done to ensure fairness, as I think both the options you describe are less fair than that.
    MadAmster
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    Post by MadAmster on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:16 pm

    whestonram wrote:
    MadAmster wrote:I contributed yesterday to this as well. Although it's a secret survey I will tell you the gist of my thoughts on it.

    1. I have no answer to the conundrum
    2. Natural born males transgendering to trans female status will, IMO, have an advantage in strength despite the hormone treatment they receive. That is not fair to the CIS females they will be competing against following transition
    3. Do we create a 3rd category so that major Championships are there for male, female and trans. The Trans family would claim that is discrimination, unfair and illegal
    4. Do we scrap all of the categories and simply have events open to all. That would be seen to be unfair to CIS women and discriminate against them as they would never win another medal/race/game etc

    Whatever the authorities decide they are going to be seen as being unfair to at least one group of people and discriminatory to at least one as well. I do not envy them one iota. They can't win, whatever they decide.

    I definitely agree with your first two points.  It seems to me that the sort of thing that I think some sports are doing - regulation of hormone levels or something - is about as much as can be done to ensure fairness, as I think both the options you describe are less fair than that.

    Just had another thought. For example, you have a CIS male athlete with a naturally low level of testosterone. His Testosterone levels are lower than those permitted for Trans athletes who are permitted to take part in female sport.Should he also be allowed to take part in the female race/game? He will be at a disadvantage when competing against men and with testosterone levels within the "female range" would be on a more level playing field in the women's events.

    Should we scrap the gender related events altogether and replace them with new categories based more on hormone levels than on gender?


    As you see, whoever is charged with coming up with the new rules has an impossible job trying to please everyone.
    ToonRam
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    Post by ToonRam on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 5:13 pm

    All Bollocks to me, or not as the case may be....

    Sent from Topic'it App
    casinoram
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    Post by casinoram on Sat 20 Apr 2019, 8:02 am

    Transgender males going into female sports. Shouldn't be allowed. They have a massive advantage and regardless of "hormonal level" restrictions, their bodies ( at least the ones who are on the world scene) are those of MEN. CisWomen don't stand a chance and should refuse to eace against them. Ard there any "transgender" females to Males who compete at such levels for example in athletics???
    MadAmster
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    Post by MadAmster on Sat 20 Apr 2019, 8:25 am

    casinoram wrote:Transgender males going into female sports. Shouldn't be allowed. They have a massive advantage and regardless of "hormonal level" restrictions, their bodies ( at least the ones who are on the world scene) are those of MEN. CisWomen don't stand a chance and should refuse to eace against them. Are there any "transgender" females to Males who compete at such levels for example in athletics???

    It looks like there is more than a slight lean towards Trans men having an advantage over CIS women.

    As you can read from my comments earlier in this thread, I have no idea what the solution might be. Finding one that doesn't have CIS women screaming "unfair" and/or the male to female trans "discrimination" absolutely or nigh on impossible. I wish those within Sports Administration al the wisdom they need, and that's a lot, to sort this out.

    As for your question casino, I won't say there aren't any but I don't know of any.
    rob
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    Post by rob on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 12:59 pm

    isn't para Olympics discrimination - yet that is brilliant - why couldn't there be a trans Olympics?
    MadAmster
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    Post by MadAmster on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 2:06 pm

    rob wrote:isn't para Olympics discrimination - yet that is brilliant - why couldn't there be a trans Olympics?

    Insufficient Trans athletes to make it a viable and "watch-worthy" event?
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    Post by rob on Wed 24 Apr 2019, 10:52 am

    still discrimination though ammy - I am not being homophobic anti LGBT or anything but if you were born a man you should not be allowed to race as a woman. If you are born a woman with abnormal testosterone then lucky you if that gives you an advantage and it is not an illegal addition to your chemical makeup (i.e. doping). Bradley Wiggins has better lungs than me which is why he is a better cyclist - nature gave him that.
    MadAmster
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    Post by MadAmster on Wed 24 Apr 2019, 11:30 am

    rob wrote:still discrimination though ammy - I am not being homophobic anti LGBT or anything but if you were born a man you should not be allowed to race as a woman.  If you are born a woman with abnormal testosterone then lucky you if that gives you an advantage and it is not an illegal addition to your chemical makeup (i.e. doping).  Bradley Wiggins has better lungs than me which is why he is a better cyclist - nature gave him that.  

    Discrimination? Not really rob. Are they really going to organise a Trans-Olympics for half a dozen athletes? You can't demand that they do and incur huge losses in doing so. Neither can you demand that TV stations around the world buy the rights to televise the event. 




    It certainly wouldn't attract major sponsors and advertisers.




    Trans athletes are entirely free to start up their own International Trans Athletics Federation or the World Trans Swimming Association just as women have done through the years. 




    The bit in bold, you may well be referring to Caster Semenya, the South African 800m runner. The whole business around her having take hormones to balance things out is daft. Keeping it clean, she has all the necessary lady bits, no male bits but has a naturally high testosterone level. She is a woman. Period. Even if they do get her to take hormones to reduce her testosterone levels, look at her muscular structure. She would still wipe the floor with the opposition. Also, her PB is 1:54:25 for the 800m. The world record is held by Jarmila Kratochvílová 1:53.28  from 1983




    In contrast, didn't Michael Johnson go something like 8 years without losing a 400m race? Nobody questioned his legitimacy.
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    Post by rob on Thu 25 Apr 2019, 10:52 am

    That’s the one totally agree

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