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    The Panic Button

    SawleyRam
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    Post by SawleyRam on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 11:26 am

    Before any panic button is hit let's put what has happened into perspective.

    1 - We have a new manager, new to English football let alone the hardest league of all, the Championship.
    2 - The players have new tactics and new training regimes that take more than eight championship matches to bed in.
    3 - We are missing the three best players in Championship from last season, replaced by either youngsters or average Championship players.
    4 - Senior players who have been hit with debilitating illnesses or injury before the season start (Marriot & Martin) therefore making a slow fight back to fitness.
    5 - Senior players who can offer that flash of genius now and then who's form is stuttering for whatever reason (Lawrence & Josefzoon) are not helping matters.

    These are reasons that any club can suffer from but coupling that with number 3 magnifies the effect. We had a good season with Mount, Wilson & Tomori in the team, now fully fledged Premiership players, replacing those three is a mountain to climb and Cocu has taken it on, he needs more that eight Championship matches for that task alone.



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    mcsilks
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    Post by mcsilks on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 11:42 am

    SawleyRam wrote:Before any panic button is hit let's put what has happened into perspective.

    1 - We have a new manager, new to English football let alone the hardest league of all, the Championship.
    2 - The players have new tactics and new training regimes that take more than eight championship matches to bed in.
    3 - We are missing the three best players in Championship from last season, replaced by either youngsters or average Championship players.
    4 - Senior players who have been hit with debilitating illnesses or injury before the season start (Marriot & Martin) therefore making a slow fight back to fitness.
    5 - Senior players who can offer that flash of genius now and then who's form is stuttering for whatever reason (Lawrence & Josefzoon) are not helping matters.

    These are reasons that any club can suffer from but coupling that with number 3 magnifies the effect. We had a good season with Mount, Wilson & Tomori in the team, now fully fledged Premiership players, replacing those three is a mountain to climb and Cocu has taken it on, he needs more that eight Championship matches for that task alone.


    1 - We have a new manager, new to English football let alone the hardest league of all, the Championship.
    A new manager maybe, but one that is not inexperienced in the game. That is why he was brought in
    2 - The players have new tactics and new training regimes that take more than eight championship matches to bed in.
    This sounds like an excuse to me. We should be starting to show something on the pitch. I cannot even see what the players are trying to do.
    3 - We are missing the three best players in Championship from last season, replaced by either youngsters or average Championship players.
    A little over the top IMO. Tomori was solid, Wilson was average goals aside (many were calling for him to be dropped less we forget, and Mount missed much a chunk of the season due to injury.
    4 - Senior players who have been hit with debilitating illnesses or injury before the season start (Marriot & Martin) therefore making a slow fight back to fitness.
    No more than any other season. We haven't had what anyone could describe as an injury crisis.
    5 - Senior players who can offer that flash of genius now and then who's form is stuttering for whatever reason (Lawrence & Josefzoon) are not helping matters.
    Lawrence's form has never been anything but stuttering. Josefzoon has yet to produce diddly squat in a Derby shirt.


    I think you're looking for excuses here Sawley.

    We are playing poorly, we look disjointed, and the manager appears to not have a clue about just how he might get this team to start playing.

    Granted, he is just into the job, but let's not get away from the fact that he has made a wretched start to his Derby managerial career and fans have the right to question him even at this early stage.

    I agree with you as to the panic button. He must be given a good amount of time...a season or two but at what cost. Just how low do things have to get or just how bad to performances have to be before the trigger happy MM starts to question his choice?

    You are entitled to your opinions but I totally disagree with your comment on Mount, Wilson & Tomori, all are goalscorers in the Premiership now so my (and others) thoughts on them must be justified and don't forget Mount is now an international player

    Using your words Tomori was solid - just what we need now instead of hesitancy.

    Wilson was average goals aside?  - It's goals that win matches and we need more of them this season. Possession means nought without the goals.

    Mount missed a chunk of the season through injury? - Mason made 35 appearances in the Championship last season, not so much a chunk as you imply is it?

    Not so much over the top when facts and statistics are applied.

    So were my comments a little over the top? Trying to replace those three is almost impossible unless you can buy your way out of it (which we cannot). Cocu took the challenge on and he hasn't yet had chance to replace anywhere near the quality of those three so the road is going to be bumpy along the way, just let's endure the ride and support a hard job to be done.
    bramhallram
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    Post by bramhallram on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 12:38 pm

    I agree with much of what you say, but I'm not sure that Cocu will get a season or two playing like we did yesterday.

    Even after only eight games we should be starting to see the makings of a well organised defence and a fiercely competitive midfield. Instead we look as shaky in defence and as feeble in midfield as we did at the start of the season.

    It's all very well trying to play the ball out from the back, but you need the players who can do it without giving the ball away all the time. We were hopeless at this yesterday, putting ourselves under pressure so many times, and with better finishing the DYS could have been 5-0 up at half time.

    Whichever way you look at it, one win in eight games isn't the start MM was looking for.

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    Post by SawleyRam on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 12:57 pm

    bramhallram wrote:I agree with much of what you say, but I'm not sure that Cocu will get a season or two playing like we did yesterday.

    Even after only eight games we should be starting to see the makings of a well organised defence and a fiercely competitive midfield. Instead we look as shaky in defence and as feeble in midfield as we did at the start of the season.

    It's all very well trying to play the ball out from the back, but you need the players who can do it without giving the ball away all the time. We were hopeless at this yesterday, putting ourselves under pressure so many times, and with better finishing the DYS could have been 5-0 up at half time.

    Whichever way you look at it, one win in eight games isn't the start MM was looking for.

    .

    I see your point Bram but yesterday we played the best team in the division at the high press game and even they couldn't sustain that press for 80 minutes and that is when we came into it and scored our goal. survival is the name of the game when the opponents are playing that tactic and we need to be on top of our passing game to enable us to do that without giving our fans a heart attack. Let them run out of steam then counter attack as we did yesterday. (We managed that against Leeds even though we were off our game).



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    Stockport Ram
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    Post by Stockport Ram on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 2:03 pm

    All I'd say is that the month/six weeks or so when Mason Mount was missing we completely came off the rails.

    His return allowed Wilson to have the space to come back to life, so it was like having our best two players back - and we went on a more than decent run to Wembley.

    He is irreplacable at this level IMHO.

    Take away the pace of Tomori which allowed Keogh not to have to worry about anything but his own game, and we realise just how much the 19/20 unit is decimated compared to the 18/19 one.


    Add injuries to Bennett and Bogle, two of our home grown successes last season, and our position should not surprise anyone.

    Those are not excuses, just cold hard facts.

    New England Ram
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    Post by New England Ram on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 2:08 pm

    SawleyRam wrote:
    bramhallram wrote:I agree with much of what you say, but I'm not sure that Cocu will get a season or two playing like we did yesterday.

    Even after only eight games we should be starting to see the makings of a well organised defence and a fiercely competitive midfield. Instead we look as shaky in defence and as feeble in midfield as we did at the start of the season.

    It's all very well trying to play the ball out from the back, but you need the players who can do it without giving the ball away all the time. We were hopeless at this yesterday, putting ourselves under pressure so many times, and with better finishing the DYS could have been 5-0 up at half time.

    Whichever way you look at it, one win in eight games isn't the start MM was looking for.

    .

    I see your point Bram but yesterday we played the best team in the division at the high press game and even they couldn't sustain that press for 80 minutes and that is when we came into it and scored our goal. survival is the name of the game when the opponents are playing that tactic and we need to be on top of our passing game to enable us to do that without giving our fans a heart attack. Let them run out of steam then counter attack as we did yesterday. (We managed that against Leeds even though we were off our game).

    Disagree Sawl they are not the best team in the division at pressing they might be the best in English football.
    Pretty impressive unit and if they had a decent forward or two it would be lights out for the rest of the league.
    Regards Cocu totally agree with pretty much everything you say.
    He needs time he needs to adjust to the English game.
    He clearly has a style he wants to play and doesn’t have the players he needs yet to carry off that style and that’s where my only issue comes in why doesn’t he adjust his style until he does.
    But if it’s a matter of principle for him then fair enough as long as he keeps us out the relegation zone and makes it moderately interesting...which it isn’t at the moment.
    He has to do enough to keep the fans off his back which is near impossible these days but fans need to be brave we cannot afford anymore change.
    Give the bloke time to adjust to settle and to bring some of his own players in.



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    CornwallRam
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    Post by CornwallRam on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 3:15 pm

    I wonder what the conditions will need to be for Mel to fire Cocu?

    Obviously we're not anywhere near that yet and hopefully we'll move up the table, so it never becomes an issue.

    I think we all believe that the winning formula is to employ the right manager and give him enough resources and time to achieve success - which for DCFC has to be promotion. On the flipside, if we employ the wrong manager, the longer he is given, the more damage he will do. How different could things have been if we'd sacked Tommy Docherty after 7 games?

    So I wonder, in the circumstances where things don't improve, at what point does Mel decide that he's made a mistake and jettison the manager?

    Personally, I don't think that Cocu could survive dropping into the bottom 3.
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    Post by New England Ram on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 4:44 pm

    CornwallRam wrote:I wonder what the conditions will need to be for Mel to fire Cocu?

    Obviously we're not anywhere near that yet and hopefully we'll move up the table, so it never becomes an issue.

    I think we all believe that the winning formula is to employ the right manager and give him enough resources and time to achieve success - which for DCFC has to be promotion. On the flipside, if we employ the wrong manager, the longer he is given, the more damage he will do. How different could things have been if we'd sacked Tommy Docherty after 7 games?

    So I wonder, in the circumstances where things don't improve, at what point does Mel decide that he's made a mistake and jettison the manager?

    Personally, I don't think that Cocu could survive dropping into the bottom 3.

    It’s tough these days to survive three successive losses let alone the bottom three.
    But again I’m so tired of us pulling the trigger on someone paying them off and repeating the process again.



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    casinoram
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    Post by casinoram on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 5:03 pm

    CornwallRam wrote:I wonder what the conditions will need to be for Mel to fire Cocu?

    Obviously we're not anywhere near that yet and hopefully we'll move up the table, so it never becomes an issue.

    I think we all believe that the winning formula is to employ the right manager and give him enough resources and time to achieve success - which for DCFC has to be promotion. On the flipside, if we employ the wrong manager, the longer he is given, the more damage he will do. How different could things have been if we'd sacked Tommy Docherty after 7 games?

    So I wonder, in the circumstances where things don't improve, at what point does Mel decide that he's made a mistake and jettison the manager?

    Personally, I don't think that Cocu could survive dropping into the bottom 3.


    How much damage could you do to our squad. In current form very little. A team that finds it difficult to create chances and with zero confidence on or off the ball.
    I'm all for giving managers time to bed in but week in week out we create so little. Even the other teams in our kind of predicament create "some chances". It is very poor viewing indeed!!
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    Post by rjrules71 on Sun 22 Sep 2019, 7:30 pm

    I believe the manager should be judged by his ability to get the best from the resources available to him, against a reasonable expectation.

    We are an average side this year, playing in a league, with very similar teams and resources, I think they call it "fair play".
    To expect an unreasonable amount from the said average team is not realistic. You must be able to change and adapt to various circumstances as they occur team by team.
    Playing 4-4-2 or any other tactic, it must be flexible enough to change within the confines of the game plan.
    This also applies to the manager, when we are getting battered and pushed back we must at least have a viable alternative to allow for us to get from under the cosh ie a strong forward who can hold the ball and bring the speed players into the game going forward.

    It is no surprise to me we performed better when Martin came on, but why leave it so long, I trust it was because of fitness issues, if not then Coco needs to learn and adapt much faster if we are not to have the season finished by Xmas.

    I suspect that much has been learned from the Brentford game and to get a draw at Leeds is a creditable effort. Much work is still ahead but I think we can improve to possibly get a look at top six, 10 games is the turning point early doors and so far we have done ok, but that is all.
    The only thing that gets you out of this league is consistency, that is long way off yet IMHO




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    Post by rob on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:36 am

    we are consistently not winning matches
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    Post by bramhallram on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:32 am

    rjrules71 wrote:

    I suspect that much has been learned from the Brentford game and to get a draw at Leeds is a creditable effort. Much work is still ahead but I think we can improve to possibly get a look at top six, 10 games is the turning point early doors and so far we have done ok, but that is all.

    I'm not convinced much has been learned from the disaster at Brentford. Getting the draw at Leeds was more to do with their careless finishing (thank you Patrick Bamford) than any upturn in our performance. In fact it was hard to spot any game plan at all until Martin came on.  

    It will be interesting to see what changes Cocu makes for the next game, but based on his cameo appearance Martin could have an important role to play this season.
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    Post by MadAmster on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 10:40 am

    IMO, we played, for the opening 70 minutes as well as they allowed us to. They ran out of steam and let us back into it. That was a huge slice of luck. About time we had some. I feel much of the slating people are giving Derby should actually (can't believe I'm writing this) be credit to the DYS. I thought they were excellent for 70 minutes.

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